Determining a Squishy CR

[edwee]

I've been making my own monsters for my gestalt campaign, and for the most part, I've been pretty good about determining CR for my creatures, however this next one is supposed to be a glass cannon of a beast, and this is making it difficult to determine its cr. its stats are;

MONSTER
Medium native Outsider (gestalt bear totem barbarian(whirling frenzy)/outsider
Hit Dice 5d8-7
Initiative +5
Speed 50 Feet
Armor Class 19 (+5 dex +2 Natural, +2 dodge)
Base attack Grapple 5/18
Attack Bite +13 1d6+7+paralysisDC 12(1d6 rounds) and 3 claws +5 1d4+3+Dermal Creep
Space/Reach 5/5
Special Attacks
Dermal Creep - injury Poision DC 10. initial damage 1d3 str damage, secondary damage 1d4 Con. the DC is CON Based. Whirling Frenzy (+4 str, +2 Dodge, +2 Reflex(already figured into stats)). Spell absorbation (when a spell fails to penetrate its SR, the MONSTER absorbs the energy of the spell, similar to the effect of the spellwarped template.)
Special Qualities - SR 20 (15+HD). Frail Body (when gestated, use smaller hd, if not gestalted, reduce the HD size by 2 to a minimum of 1hp per level)
Saves - fort +4, Reflex +9, Will, +5
Abilities - str 21 dex 20 con 6 int 10 wis 12 cha 18
skills hide +10 move silently +10, listen +6
feats toughness, improved grapple, great fortitude, weapon focus bite, ability focus, paraylisis.
Enviorment - underground, or encysted areas
Organization - single or clutch (1d6+2)
CR - ???
treasure - none
Alignment - Neutral Evil
Advancement - by class

I was thinking that this is somewhere in the CR 6 to 8 range. but then again, im pretty terrible at gauging CR, so could i get some help from some people.

 

[Empirate]

When determining CRs for homebrew monsters, the first thing I ask myself is: "what kind of party can slaughter this monster in one round?". Your creation has AC 19 and 16 HP (5d8-7). So a 1st level party actually has a good chance of putting it out of its misery in a single round, maybe two!

The next thing I ask myself is: "what can the monster do to a party of any given level?". In this case, there's quite a bit of damage to go round (attack bonuses should be recalculated, though, depending on active Whirling Frenzy or not). Paralysis and Poison DCs should be low enough to almost not matter unless the party is super low level, though.

Miscellaneous defenses is the next part. SR is high for its HD, but other than that, there's not much, just basic Outsider HD stuff.

Given that a 3rd level Barbarian has a good chance of one-shotting this monster, I'd not put the CR higher than 3, despite the damage this thing can pour out. It's just too frail.


Concerning monster design in general: interesting, memorable monsters don't die in a single round, but last for much longer. Their offense needs to be dependable, but not overpowering (which can be frustrating). The glass cannon approach, on the other hand, makes initiative even more important than it generally is, and makes battles extremely swingy. For that reason, I'd refrain from glass cannon-y monsters most of the time, unless they're supported by some more durable backbone (buffer caster, tank...).

 

[edwee]

Thank you very much for the advice. Normally I make much more rounded monsters than this, however it is in use for a frail race of monsters plaugeing my campaigns land, and these in particular are meant to be backed up by the more regular, ranged monsters and their war beasts. Ive introduced the party to these a few times, (though i didnt have a stat block made then, oops) and despite their fraility, they've been more memorable than some of the more meaty monsters (Though that could be from the barbarian failing the fort save, lol)

But still, thank you very much for the input

 

[Sekhmet]

When I examine non-magical creatures for CR purposes (up to about CR10), I pit them against a well built Fighter of equal level for five fights.

A defensively built, level 3 Fighter could take this opponent down probably 1 out of 5 fights. At that point, he doesn't have the AC or the HP to take the damage, and not enough attacks to effectively use a trip combo.

An offensively built, level 3 Fighter could take this opponent down probably 2 or 3 out of 5 times. It'd be a real crap shoot, more or less coming down to who gets hit first.

If we put it's CR at 4, the Fighters stand a much better chance of winning. They'll have the HP and expected character wealth to afford the gear to defend or guarantee offensive strategies, and they'll likely win 4 or 5 out of 5 times.

I think CR3 is a great spot for this particular monster.

 

[the Jester]

I'd go CR 3, except that the SR/paralysis/poison combination may be a bit much- I lean towards CR 4.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Do you have copies of your player's character sheets? Run an encounter against the monster. In theory, an at CR encounter should use up about 20% of their resources (Spells, items, HP, etc.).

If the party wipes it out quickly, then it's probably under CR. If it takes a lot of effort to defeat said monster, then its over CR for them.

 

[Empirate]

Do you have copies of your player's character sheets? Run an encounter against the monster. In theory, an at CR encounter should use up about 20% of their resources (Spells, items, HP, etc.).

If the party wipes it out quickly, then it's probably under CR. If it takes a lot of effort to defeat said monster, then its over CR for them.

Since this is a glass cannon monster, make sure to run at least 5 playtests, as [MENTION=97602]Sekhmet[/MENTION] recommends. Individual battles will be very different, and may result in wholesale slaughter of PCs one time, a boring 1 round monster kill a second time. "20% of resources" is really just an average, so shoot for that average by averaging over a large N.