Developing a Zoom-In, Zoom-Out Mass Combat System

[Manbearcat]

So I was working on a Skill Challenge for a Mass Combat that is going to bridge the end of Paragon tier to Epic tier play when I decided to go ahead and attempt to develop a mass combat system after being inspired by a one-off experience with one of WotC board games. My design premise is for the rules to be fun, highly functional with minimal overhead, and abstract enough to work well with a zoom-in/zoom-out philosophy. I want it to be fast, engaging, easy, coherent and fun. I'm planning on using the below codification/resolution tools:



1 - Simplified Action economy of 1 action with 2 At-Will choices per unit resulting in limited tactical complexity.
2 - Terrain Type for each Zoomed Out Zone which results in a simple aura buff for specific Unit Roles for minor strategy complexity.
3 - Fortunes; (i) d20 Attack roll, (ii) d20 Saving Throw for limited condition recovery (probaby just 2), (iii) Encounter cards at the end of each turn, (iv) Natural 20 equals Utility Power Card gain.
5 - Zoomed in and Zoomed out versions of all combat units.
6 - Standard 4e combat rules for integrated Zoomed In Zones.

I am going to work up all the moving parts (Units/creatures and their Utility Power Cards, Terrain Auras, Encounter Cards) and then playtest it multiple times solely Zoomed Out (Mass Combat Wargame only) to get it right and then perform playtests integrating the Zoomed In and Zoomed Out combat mechanics to confirm that they're simple, coherent and effective. Here is the general rules framework thus far (this would probably make more sense for those who have played any of those board games). Any commentary (this sucks, this is too fiddly, please clarify this, this would be better this way, why don't you try this, etc) would be welcome). Here we go:


ZOOMED OUT MASS COMBAT ZONES

Zones for Mass Combat between units where PCs are not present. This will likely be a roughly abstracted 30 square (150 ft) * 30 square (150 ft) area for about 4.5 square miles. This is sufficiently zoomed out with enough room for a few squads/units to engage and small enough that mobility and artillery between zones is feasible on a zoomed in scale. 4 things; Zoomed out unit stats, action economy, fortune (encounter cards), and a passive terrain aura (minor buff to specific unit role types) will dictate outcomes here.


ZOOMED IN MASS COMBAT ZONES

30 * 30 areas where the PCs are engaged with one or more Enemy Units and possibly assisted by Allied Units. This combat will take place under the auspices of standard 4e combat. Units will be statted as swarms for zoomed in combat. They will degrade in size based on HP threshold; eg 75 %, 50 % will each move one step down in size finally turning into stray minions (and possibly a leader given the unit type) when the swarm/unit hits 25 %.


ZOOMED OUT MASS COMBAT UNITS

Mass Combat Units will have a Defense, HPs, 1 Healing Surge, Initiative, and 2 At-Will Attacks. Their Action Economy consists of 1 action; At-Will Attack (damage + rider), Spend Healing Surge, Move: Zone Boundary;Adjacent Zone (Cavalry will have Move: 1 Zone and Scouts will have Move to Zone Edge/Switch Zone as a rider to one of their At-Wills). There are 5 locations within a zone that a unit can occupy: the middle, any of the 4 boundaries. Unit Attacks will have a range of melee (their current position in the zone) unless otherwise noted in their At-Will Attacks (* Special). Units will have Keyword driven roles that dictate their stats: Artillery, Cavalry, Horde, Infantry, Scouts, Siege Team. Sample Enemy Unit:

Orc Berserkers (Horde)
Def: 12 HP: 16 HS: 8 Init: 12 Move: Zone Boundary;Adjacent Zone

Reckless Abandon - At Will:
Attack: + 5
Hit: 3 damage and the Orc Berserkers unit takes 1 damage.

Furious Assault - At Will:
Attack: + 5
Hit: 1 damage and the Orc Berserkers unit slides the enemy unit to the zone boundary (or adjacent zone if already on the zone boundary) and can then move to any zone boundary (or adjacent zone if already on the zone boundary).

** If a player rolls a natural 20 on an attack roll or a saving throw they gain an Encounter Utility Power Card for the respective allied unit to play at their discretion.


ZOOMED OUT MASS COMBAT TURN RESOLUTION

Each Unit acts on their initiative. The GM will perform enemy actions. The players will perform an action for each of the allied units (and play an Encounter or Utility card if they have one to play). At the end of the round, the players will draw an Encounter Card, the results of which will happen immediately (unless the card is one for the player to keep and play at their discretion).


TERRAIN

This is a Role specific aura effect that provides a bonus to a Mass Combat Unit while it is in the corresponding zone. Terrain and corresponding role (s) are (auras pending):


- Shallow River Ford - Cavalry, Horde
- Bridge - Infantry, Siege Team
- Narrow Pass/Valley - Infantry
- Bog - Cavalry, Horde, Scouts
- Sweeping Plain - Artillery, Cavalry, Horde, Siege Team
- Alpine Forest - Artillery, Scouts
- Rocky - Infantry, Scouts
- Fortified - Artillery, Siege Team


ENCOUNTER CARDS

At the end of each round, the players will draw an Encounter Card, the results of which will happen immediately (unless the card is one for the player to keep and play at their discretion). Examples of possible encounter cards (effects pending) are:

- Bottleneck!
- The World Hates Me! (Falling Rocks/Trees, Ground Gives Way, Rainstorm, etc)
- Piles of Bodies!
- Take the High Ground!
- Reincforcements!
- Man Down! (Officer/Leader)
- Unguarded Flank!
- Rally!
- Momentary Reprieve!
- Opening!


ZOOMED IN COMBAT ZONE TURN RESOLUTION

Any zone where the PCs are located will be zoomed in (standard 4e combat) to a 30 * 30 area with terrain that represents the zone. Each Mass Combat Unit will have a standardized 4e Swarm, Standard, and Minion analog. The rules for Zoomed In combat encounters PCs entering a Zoomed In combat Zones are as follows:

PCs entering a Mass Combat Zone

- Mass Combat Units between 76 - 100 % HPs will be represented by 4 Gargantuan sized swarms equaling an XP budget of L + 2.
- Mass Combat Units between 51 - 75 % HPs will be represented by 2 Gargantuan sized swarms equaling an XP budget of L + 1.
- Mass Combat Units between 26 - 50 % HPs will be represented by a predetermined (based on unit Role) number of Standard creatures and minion creatures equaling an XP budget of L.
- Mass Combat Units at 25 % or less will be represented by a predetermined number of Minion creatures equaling an XP budget of L - 1.

PCs starting in a Mass Combat Zone

- Mass Combat Units will be represented by 4 Gargantuan sized swarms equaling an XP budget of L + 3.
- When each swarm takes enough damage to become Bloodied (50 % HPs), it will be broken out into a predetermined number (based on unit Role) of bloodied Standard creatures and Minion creatures equaling an XP budget of L + 3.

** If the PCs leave a Zoomed In Combat Zone with an ally and/or enemy, that ally and/or enemy reverts to a Mass Combat Unit with HPs relative to its current percentage (eg for a 16 HP Unit, they would revert to 16, 12 , 8, or 4). See Zoomed Out Mass Combat.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Double post.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Great thread! 4e would really benefit from a solid set of mass combat guidelines.

Only one question so far: Each unit has one action, which allows them to attack, heal, or move?

Oh, and I suspect that tracking which encounter cards are for which units will get tiresome in a truly massive battle. Or maybe I'm reading you wrong?

 

[Manbearcat]

Only one question so far: Each unit has one action, which allows them to attack, heal, or move?

Correct. Simple action economy. 1 Action + Free Action; Encounter Card or a Utility Power Card.

For instance. Lets say the above Orc Berserkers (Horde) unit is Fighting a Dwarven Phalanx (Infantry) unit. They are fighting in a zone where the terrain is a Narrow Pass where the Infantry has some advantage from the terrain aura (maybe a + 2 to Defense). Adjacent is a Sweeping Plain Zone where the Horde unit has a buff from the terrain aura (maybe a + 2 to Hit, which would be a net + 4 difference). The Orc Berserkers use Furious Assault to do 1 damage and (rider) move the Dwarven Phalanx and themselves back 1 zone into the Open Plain where they have the terrain advantage.

Alternatively, they could spend their Healing Surge, move one Zone or attack using Reckless Abandon.

Oh, and I suspect that tracking which encounter cards are for which units will get tiresome in a truly massive battle. Or maybe I'm reading you wrong?

I presume you mean the Utility Encounter Cards gained by rolling a natural 20 on one of the units turns, yes? Well, a couple of things:

- I would envision that most Mass Combats wouldn't have a vast array of allied types (perhaps 3 Infantry Units 1 Cavalry and 1 Artillery as standard). Therefore, your side would really only have 3 Utility Encounter Card types available.

- Rolling a natural 20 is, of course, only a ~ 5 % outcome of the Fortune roll. If the Players have 5 units, and each Mass Combat lasts 8 rounds, you're likely talking somewhere around 40 rolls (given Healing Surges, a few Saving Throws, and a few stray Move Actions). Therefore, on average, you're probably only talking about ~ 2 cards gained per Mass Combat. Not so bad. If you double the units or double the rounds or some amalgamation thereof (a truly epic battle), you're still only looking at roughly ~ 4 cards gained.


If you're talking about Encounter Cards (the cards drawn at the end of the round), those will almost exclusively be an immediate effect (similar to a rider effect) that affects all units in particular terrain zones in some way (damage to all, can't move from that zone save ends, all units move to an adjacent zone, etc) or some battlefield event occurs and gives one side some kind of advantage (perhaps a morale boost or another unit, etc)

 

[Chris Knapp]

Have you taken a look at Hard Boiled Ideas: Armies yet? Its a great Battlesystem-type set of rules. It encompasses a lot of your ideas.

 

[Manbearcat]

Have you taken a look at Hard Boiled Ideas: Armies yet? Its a great Battlesystem-type set of rules. It encompasses a lot of your ideas.

I had not. However, clicking on that link and reading the marketing blurb reveals that there are indeed some similarities. Thank you for linking it. I might support the fellow and make a purchase if for no other purpose than to support his efforts. In truth, I think 4e is intuitive enough in its design that it is likely not a coincidence that we would both be led to the same areas.

I am still working on this, by the by. I'm tinkering with random bits here and there. Trying out a few discreet elements to determine if they are subtraction by addition. Playtesting and trying to balance the various options out. It needs to be user-friendly with very minimal overhead...but not so simple as to be tactically impotent. Further, the fortunes (encounter cards) need to be sensical, provocative and fun. Should probably have something tangible by next week.

I do appreciate the link. If anyone has any general (or specific) ideas, I would be glad to hear them and entertain them in my efforts.

 

[Will Doyle]

There's a lot of ideas here I really like! When zoomed in, I love that you're using swarms for enemies, and then breaking them down in size until they scatter as minions. That's pretty epic. When zoomed out, I like the use of standard 4E principles for units (action economy, forced movement, surges, etc).

Couple of thoughts/questions -

• How long is a zoomed-out turn supposed to represent? Does it matter that you freeze time when you zoom in - or should you play X rounds close-up and then take a zoom-out turn to see how things change around you (reinforcement, flanks, etc)?
• Fortune cards sound fun, but aren't they likely do get some odd results? (e.g. "man down!" when no units are actually engaged). Or are they most often held in hand and played when needed?

For what it's worth, I've been toying with similar ideas myself - in fact, our present campaign is slowly fighting through a player-driven war in the Nentir Vale. We use three levels of zoom - campaign, battle, and zoomed-in skirmish (some pics below of our campaign and battle setups). I provide my battle rules on my blog here: http://beholderpie.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/mass-combat-revisited.html.

I'll definitely be incorporating some of your ideas into our next session, and I'm looking forward to seeing where this system goes next!

 

[Manbearcat]

@Will Doyle

Thanks for posting. I'll put together an update post in the coming days. Going to try to address your questions right quick.

Zoomed-Out action economy - Its not the same as standard 4e. All Zoomed-Out Zone Combat is 1 turn per unit per round in that Zone. Each Unit will have 2 At-Wills to pick from that will cause damage and a rider effect (which may include forcing an enemy into an adjacent zone).

Zoomed-Out Combat Resolution - This will take place at the same time as Zoomed In combat (the zone where the PCs are). Units will have an initiative number and will resolve their action on that initiative. During the same round the PCs will resolve their actions in the Zoomed-In zone concurrently. If the PCs move to a zone that was Zoomed-Out before, that zone will now be Zoomed-In and the zone they left will go to Zoom-Out (see above for details on that).

Encounter Cards - As of now, I have PCs drying an Encounter card for each of their units at the end of the round. This will either be an immediate effect that takes place at the beginning of the next round (eg; Reinforcements! - A Cavalry Unit shows up for either the enemy or the PCs and now fights in that zone) or it may be a card that they retain and play at their discretion (to positively affect combat for their unit).

I'll update sometime in the coming days with a playtest effort (showing units, encounter cards and round by round action).

 

[Ferghis]

I like this very much and am looking forward to seeing developments. Hat's off to ya, Manbearcat!

Zoomed-Out Combat Resolution - This will take place at the same time as Zoomed In combat (the zone where the PCs are). Units will have an initiative number and will resolve their action on that initiative. During the same round the PCs will resolve their actions in the Zoomed-In zone concurrently. If the PCs move to a zone that was Zoomed-Out before, that zone will now be Zoomed-In and the zone they left will go to Zoom-Out (see above for details on that).

So one round of zoomed-out action is the same unit of time as one round of zoomed-in action? That's strange, since a zoomed-out unit can move, on average, 30 squares (if I have this correctly), while a zoomed-in creature, even running with a double move, only crosses 16 squares. So, maybe it would make sense to have two rounds of zoomed-in action for every round of zoomed out action? Or maybe it takes two actions for a (non-cavalry) unit to move into another square? This might actually be cooler, since it allows for one action to "move out" of a square, and another to "move in" to another square, adding to tactical complexity.

 

[Manbearcat]

Hey @Ferghis Don't take your hat off yet! Its still pending the verdict on being fully functional and fun or being full of suck!

As to your paragraph. I'm still tinkering with a few things. I'll run a few goes with your input to activate the Zoned Out Mass Combat Zones on every other turn and see how it goes. However, I think I should say a few things on the aim of my efforts to dispel a couple of looming questions:

- I'm not looking to unify Action Economy or Time/Round between Zoned Out Mass Combat and Zoned In Mass Combat. The only area where they need to be synced (mechanically) is how they interface when one becomes the other. The moment a PC/group begins interfacing with a Zoned Out Mass Combat, they immediately become Zoned In (immediately, as in on that action and until the combat is resolved). Ia group needs it, they can color the narrative of Zoned Out Mass Combat "Round Duration" as roughly 12 seconds; doubling up the normal 4e (the Zoned In version) Round Duration of roughly 6 seconds. That might be a better solution to your query.

- I just want something that is highly functional and user friendly. By that I mean:

1) Abstract, Gamist/Narrativist mechanics and narrative rendering of the round/round resolution of the mass combat zones over Granular Process Simulation.
2) Not fiddly.
3) Not invasive.
4) Quickly and easily adjudicated.
5) Transitions well from Zoned In to Zoned Out.
6) Thematically representative
7) Tactically rich but not too, too deep so it violates any of the above.


I want it to feel like the heroes are engaged in a fast-paced, action-packed, high stakes mass combat. I want it to be going on around them. I want the mechanical resolution to be quick but meaningful and impactful. I want the heroes contribution to be meaningful and impactful. This is why unification of action economy and all function of processes (time, space, etc) should not be (as it would violate 1 or more of the above) a match between Zone In and Zone Out. Given the number of Zones and Units that will be in play (if someone were to use this), it would be a logistical nightmare and bog the game down fiercely. Its just meant to be simple, fun, evocative, and functional for the PCs to interface with and get a sense of the stakes and their place in affecting the resolution of them.