Dex vs. Str

[JoeBlank]

Our group eliminated Weapon Finesse. You may now use either your Dex or Str modifier for your attack roll, whichever is higher.

I like this idea. How long have you been using it? How well is it working? Anyone else using this idea?

Seems there are two ways to do this:

1. Assume everyone has the Weapon Finesse feat for free. This means that anyone can use their Dex modifier to attack with light weapons, as well as rapiers and such.

2. Celtavian seems to be saying that you can use Dex or Str modifier for attack roll with any weapon. This could be going too far, but maybe not. As he points out, the Str guys still have the advantage in the damage category. But even the Str types still need Dex for ranged attacks, whereas the Dex guys can always use Dex, for ranged or melee, regardless of weapon.

Which way do others prefer, and why?

 

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

Wait a minute, are you playing the old rule that a natural 20 hits no matter what, or is there a skill/feat/something else that adds that? Because otherwise even a natural 20 won't let Mr. Strong hit Mr. Agile, and Mr. Agile will eventually kill Mr. Strong if Mr. Strong doesn't run away first. I've never played that nat20 is always a success or nat1 is always a failure. My group hates playing that way with a burning burning passion.

You've then house ruled one of the rules of the core books. According to PHB, natural 1 on an attack always misses. Natural '20' always hits.

Go check it out.

If you and your players prefer to house rule it differently, that's your call.

 

[Celtavian]

I like this idea. How long have you been using it?

About six months.

How well is it working?

It has been fine. It seems fair to both Str and Dex based guys. Dex guys get Attack and Better Ac, and Str guys get Attack and Better damage. The Dex based fighter doesn't feel like he got the shaft because the Str based fighter pumps points into Str receiveing attack and damage increases.

It also allows for different types of Dex based fighters who can use Two-handed Swords and dual weapons not normally allowed with Weapon Finesse (like Drizz't and Zaknafein). I am always for open ended options. In regular Str based DnD, it was utterly foolish to create a Dex based fighter with a 2-handed weapon. It can be done with our optional rule and still be a very viable character since attack is based on Dex. They can still take advantage of Power Attack and receive an adequate damage bonus.

The only drawback is you have to check monster entries to be sure you are using the better attack modifier (either Str or Dex) and modify the Attack/Full Attack section accordingly. You have to replace the Weapon Finesse feat with something else when it is listed in a monster entry. You have to modify a few encounters in modules so that the enemies are taking advantage of their better Str or Dex.

It takes some work to institute this house rule, but I really like it after using it for 6 months. Definitely fits my vision of how fighter types like Drizz't, Zaknafein, and the Grey Mouser would operate.

2. Celtavian seems to be saying that you can use Dex or Str modifier for attack roll with any weapon. This could be going too far, but maybe not. As he points out, the Str guys still have the advantage in the damage category. But even the Str types still need Dex for ranged attacks, whereas the Dex guys can always use Dex, for ranged or melee, regardless of weapon.

Yep, every weapon. More variation always improves gameplay, at least that is my preference.

 

[Darklone]

I like to play dex based fighters and my elves or halflings or even kobolds have used TWF style and/or twohanded weapons in melee as well. They were effective enough without free Weapon Finesse or the even better option discussed here.

Giving everyone the choice of free weapon finesse or even attacking with Dex with greatswords (and possibly still allowing Power Attack) is not a good idea. There are groups where it works, but there are many where it will not work.

Same argument as Dex mod to damage for ranged attacks.

 

[Pax]

Pax: The strength fighter's attack routine is at +42/+42/+37/+32/+27 right?

No. I made no assumptions about haste / weapon-of-speed. So only +42/+37/+32/+27.

Supreme power attack seems like a better choice than greater rage for sheer attack power - so if we tweak that to Barb10/FB10 the basic attack routine (assume a greatsword for simplicity) becomes +41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (2d6+31)

No, again, no Haste or Weapon of Speed factored in for either fighter, so only +41/+36/+31/+26.

Also, I didn't even assume magic weapons aiding in the attack for either fighter - in which case, plus for plus, the agility fighter benefits more, because the enhancmenet bonus would represent a much lrger proportional boost to his damage with each blow.

With PA: +21/+21/+16/+11/+6 (2d6+111) - Avg damage on a hit then is 118

Less the first attack.

Therefore expected damage per round = ((1.05*118)*0.05)*5 = 30.975 dam/rnd

Nope. 4 attacks, roughly one-in-twenty chance to hti with each attack, so roughly 23.6 per round average damage.

Next up the dex fighter: his +2 damage is neatly cancelled by the barbarian's DR 2/-, so his average damage on a hit is 3.5

Expected damage/round = (((1.1*3.5)*0.5)*2) + (((1.1*3.5)*0.25)*2) + (((1.05*3.5)*0.05))*3) = 3.85+1.925+0.55125 = 6.32625 dam/rnd - nice estimate, Pax

So the strength fighter seems to be significantly more effective.

If considering solely pure damage-output-per-round, yes you're right. But consider the other elements I mentioned: pre-melee ranged combat and initiative. Contemplate the effects, after the strength fighter nukes his BAB to full power attack, of a simple disarm (or five) by the agility fighter, who can choose to forgo his Improved Combat Expertise for the round; the Strength fighter is more reliant on having a 2H weapon around, than the agility fighter is. ^_^

Also consider, that once critical hits come into play, the agility fighter is rolling dice more often, and will thus get Threats more often - and convert them to criticals more easily based on his chances to hit, too. Threat- or Critical-based weapon modifiers will similarly be of more value to him (paired Scimitars of +1/Vorpal, for example - or just a pair of Icy/Fiery/Whatever Burst weapons ... etc).

Or simple Shortswords of Wounding/Marrowcrushing. Sure, only 6 average damage per round - and two to four points of constitution! Twice that with Greater Wounding, heh (Marrowcrushing would be preferable, since immunity to crits is irrelevant to it - but it's Evil-with-a-capital-E, and, a +3 weapon ability). For some routes to victory, quantity of attacks is superior to quality of attacks. ^_^

For myself, rather than shortswords ... I'd actually go with Light Maces, make sure to get Improved Critical (Light Mace), and take the "Lightning Mace" combat-style feat from Complete Warrior. More Attacks = Good. However, I wasn't going to try and ultra-twink-out either side of my comparison.

On a more subjective level I find defense based classes to be generally weaker in a party scenario - an astronomical AC does little good when the enemy decides to ignore your piddling damage output and go kill the casters instead. Naturally YMMV

The defense-based character needs to apply his/her advantage in a way that benefits the party. Knowing s/he is harder to hit, s/he can purposely take AoOs to get enemy spellcasters into their Threatened area; interpose theirself between melee-brute enemies and the party spellcaster(s); hold a doorway to cover the party's retreat; and so on.

 

[Pax]

Humm... wasn't the original question how to alter encounters to make dex a better choice, not who will win a silly power gaming unevenly min/maxed battle between a str and dex fighter

I used each other's AC's as targets, as often two fighters are compared, in terms of overall power, based solely on "which one would win in a fight".

Against monsters, IMO the Agility fighter woudl fare even better, as there are lots of creatures with MUCH better than a +40-odd attack bonus (bigger dragons, for example). Usually, against most PC's, those become a matter of "don't roll a 1, and the monster hits". Against the agility fighter,however, the odds of the monster hitting drop down to maybe 50/50-ish. Sure, he won't be doing the damage the strength fighter does - but he won't be TAKING the damage the strength fighter will, either!

(Mr. Strong's lack of magical armor really stands out as silly in this context, compared to bracers +8 and a +5 buckler. And do those even stack, for the 3.5 ignorant?).

Excuse me, +5 Mithril Full Plate is not magical armor ... ? Sans the magic on that armor, Mr Strong's AC drops to 19 - and Mr Agile gets to hit far more often, netting a higher per-round average damage output.

Your other points are 100% relevant, though. ^_^

 

[Nellisir]

But Dex also governs your initiative, your defense (AC), your Reflex saving throws, and your Dex-based skills. Str is now reduced to damage and Str-based skill.

IOW, you just made Dex an even more important attribute than the others.

My thoughts exactly. I've been trying to make Dex LESS important, not more important.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Bauglir]

No. I made no assumptions about haste / weapon-of-speed. So only +42/+37/+32/+27.

I was thinking of the extra attack granted by frenzy for that second +42.

Also, I didn't even assume magic weapons aiding in the attack for either fighter - in which case, plus for plus, the agility fighter benefits more, because the enhancmenet bonus would represent a much lrger proportional boost to his damage with each blow.

This is certainly true, and further since the dextrous fighter makes more attacks he benefits from those bonuses more often. All this leads on to an excellent point you make later on - the dextrous fighter can make better use of non-scaling abilities (such as elemental enchantments, status attacks, or abilities which add damage such as weapon specialisation or sneak attack) due to sheer numbers of attacks.

I'm definitely not going to try to tackle a proper analysis of the effects of these things on the balance between the str fighter and the dex fighter, there's just way too many variables. My feeling is that by exploiting special abilities the dextrous fighter can hold their own against the strength fighter. However many of these abilites are very situational - the wounding sword isn't so useful vs undead or constructs for example. The str fighter's sheer damage however works well against just about anything (and also proves more useful when DR is an issue)

Also consider, that once critical hits come into play, the agility fighter is rolling dice more often, and will thus get Threats more often - and convert them to criticals more easily based on his chances to hit, too.

However since the criticals only multiply his very low base damage the benifits remain proportional as above.

For some routes to victory, quantity of attacks is superior to quality of attacks. ^_^

I fully agree (see above )

However, I wasn't going to try and ultra-twink-out either side of my comparison.

*cough*Frenzied Berzerker*cough*
(Only kidding - personally I find the FB to be massively broken, but of course YMMV )

interpose theirself between melee-brute enemies and the party spellcaster(s); hold a doorway to cover the party's retreat; and so on.

This is an interesting one (as it's never come up for me) but it seems dex can be used to resist an overrun. How does that one work then?

 

[Chris Parker]

But Dex also governs your initiative, your defense (AC), your Reflex saving throws, and your Dex-based skills. Str is now reduced to damage and Str-based skill.

IOW, you just made Dex an even more important attribute than the others.

You guys remember where Graceful Strikes is? Its a +1 ENH that lets you use DEX instead of STR for damage.

Add that and Greater Manuevering Grace (+1) and you can have a very nasty DEX based character with a low STR. Also, all the INT to damage (houseruled as INT instead of STR to damage) from classes such as Swashbuckler can help.

 

[DarkMaster]

double post