D&D 3E/3.5 Diablo 3 Demon Hunter for 3.5?

[Azaar]

After seeing the trailer for the Diablo 3 Demon Hunter, I've been wondering just how something like that would work mechanically from 3.5 -- I'm leaning towards a Ranger/Scout multiclass with the Swift Hunter feat from Complete Scoundrel; alternatively, perhaps a hybrid version based on the Scout, with some Favored Enemy from Ranger (though I'm still working on the traps/abilities of the class, whether to have a trapsmithing skill like the Combat Trapsmith from Complete Scoundrel, or perhaps a ranger-like limited spellcasting to emulate her abilities.

Right now, I'm curious about the prospect of dual-wielding hand crossbows (assuming that both are quick-loading hand crossbows). My thought is blending Two-Weapon Fighting with Manyshot/Greater Manyshot (Expanded Psionics), quite possibly with both Crossbow Sniper and Telling Blow feats (PHB 2). Since using Manyshot/Greater Manyshot is a standard action, I'm wondering if perhaps dual-wielding hand crossbows will allow me to use the feats for each hand crossbow, while also letting me get the skirmish bonus for the extra damage and AC bonus to each shot fired within 60 feet, courtesy of the Crossbow Sniper and Telling Blow feats.

If that doesn't work, how can I most closely emulate the Demon Hunter's twin hand crossbow ranged fighting?

 

[emoplato]

After seeing the trailer for the Diablo 3 Demon Hunter, I've been wondering just how something like that would work mechanically from 3.5 -- I'm leaning towards a Ranger/Scout multiclass with the Swift Hunter feat from Complete Scoundrel; alternatively, perhaps a hybrid version based on the Scout, with some Favored Enemy from Ranger (though I'm still working on the traps/abilities of the class, whether to have a trapsmithing skill like the Combat Trapsmith from Complete Scoundrel, or perhaps a ranger-like limited spellcasting to emulate her abilities.

Right now, I'm curious about the prospect of dual-wielding hand crossbows (assuming that both are quick-loading hand crossbows). My thought is blending Two-Weapon Fighting with Manyshot/Greater Manyshot (Expanded Psionics), quite possibly with both Crossbow Sniper and Telling Blow feats (PHB 2). Since using Manyshot/Greater Manyshot is a standard action, I'm wondering if perhaps dual-wielding hand crossbows will allow me to use the feats for each hand crossbow, while also letting me get the skirmish bonus for the extra damage and AC bonus to each shot fired within 60 feet, courtesy of the Crossbow Sniper and Telling Blow feats.

If that doesn't work, how can I most closely emulate the Demon Hunter's twin hand crossbow ranged fighting?

You would want to use the rapid shot line as the abilities above have separate actions so they don't stack per RAW. I would think you could use them to reduce attack penalties which then you would want ambidexterity. Though, if you were a Thri-keen you would have the multi-armed equivalents for possibly four hand crossbows. The non-psionic version has only 1 level adjustment and two racial hit die which is a very good bargain.

 

[Azaar]

Well, I already would be: Manyshot requires Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and BAB +6, while Greater Manyshot requires Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and BAB +6.

Rapid Shot is almost a wasted feat in trying to build up to something like what I'm envisioning, though: it requires a full-round action to fire that extra shot (with both attacks taking a -2 penalty). Then, you have to have Telling Blow for the chance at skirmish damage, and then only for critical hits -- and you're still missing on the skirmish AC bonus because a full-round action only allows you to take a 5-foot step; not enough for the minimum 10 feet movement required to gain the skirmish bonuses.

Rapid Shot's only use is as a stepping stone to Manyshot, which is a standard action to fire multiple shots (twice at BAB +6 with -4 penalty to each shot; three times at BAB +11 with -6 penalty to each shot; or four times at BAB +16 with -8 penalty to each shot) as a standard action. Each shot has to be at the same target, and if you critically hit more than once with attacks using sneak attack/skirmish, you only get to add that to the first attack; all subsequent attacks deal normal damage. Manyshot gives you your skirmish bonuses to AC and damage because it still gives you your move action to make that minimum 10-foot movement (or 20-foot movement if you're using the non-epic Improved Skirmish feat from Complete Scoundrel).

That's where Greater Manyshot would come in: Greater Manyshot gives you the added versatility of targeting multiple targets with your Manyshot use, but better yet makes it so that if you do fire at the same target and hit more than once with critical hits, each hit gets the benefit of that precision-based damage (sneak attack/skirmish).

I can understand if you can't use Manyshot/Greater Manyshot with the off-hand hand crossbow (incorporated with Two-Weapon Fighting), and just have a regular attack from it (albeit with an additional -2 penalty to each attack as a result of it being a light weapon in the off-hand). But Rapid Shot's full-round action flies in the face of what the Demon Hunter looks to be able to do with dual-wielding hand crossbows, and I'm not sure Rapid Shot would even work with Two-Weapon Fighting to give the additional attack to your offhand weapon.

Likewise, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree doesn't really work too well on its own to adequately reflect dual-wielding crossbows the way the Demon Hunter is shown to be capable of in that intro trailer, because the extra attacks granted from Improved TWF and Greater TWF are only usable as part of a full-round attack action. If I'm an 11th level ranger and have Greater TWF, I'd have six attacks as a full-round action, or two attacks as a standard action. Not really much of any difference going on between it and Rapid Shot, as discussed above.

Of course, then Manyshot's 30-foot range makes me wonder -- would Crossbow Sniper doubling the sneak attack/skirmish damage ranged attack from 30 to 60 feet also double the range for Manyshot, and allow you to use Manyshot or Greater Manyshot for those attacks at up to 60 feet away? I would be inclined to think so, since that 30-foot range seems to be in place specifically for the possibility of Manyshot and Greater Manyshot being used for sneak attacks and the like.

 

[kitcik]

You can't TWF or attack at all with your off hand as part of a standard action. You can only do this as part of a full round action. Therefore, TWF and Manyshot is a bad combo. Using tow crossbows and Manshot is a bad combo. Therefore, Emoplato's response was the appropriate answer to your question - you can "most closely emulate the Demon Hunter's twin hand crossbow ranged fighting" with Rapid Shot et al.

Attack: Use this action to make a single melee or ranged attack. (Some feats, such as Manyshot , allow you to make more than one attack with a standard action.) If your base attack bonus allows you to make multiple attacks during your turn, or if you wield two weapons, you need to use the full-attack action (a full-round action) to make the multiple attacks.
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[Azaar]

Ugh. That sucks, then, because Rapid Shot is nowhere near being able to emulate what the Demon Hunter can do. That makes two-weapon fighting sub-optimal for a skirmishing type, let alone a ranged skirmisher, if you can only emulate it through lack of movement and full-round actions (and be deprived of the skirmish bonuses to AC and damage in the process).

Pity there isn't really a way to dual-wield and skirmish at the same time.

 

[kitcik]

Ugh. That sucks, then, because Rapid Shot is nowhere near being able to emulate what the Demon Hunter can do. That makes two-weapon fighting sub-optimal for a skirmishing type, let alone a ranged skirmisher, if you can only emulate it through lack of movement and full-round actions (and be deprived of the skirmish bonuses to AC and damage in the process).

Pity there isn't really a way to dual-wield and skirmish at the same time.

I agree and I don't think it is overpowered or anything. You should talk to your DM about it.

If melee guys can get Pounce (full attack on a charge), why can't ranged dudes get something similar (full attack with a move if you accept a penalty to AC or something).

 

[emoplato]

Well there is, it is called travel devotion. This allows you to take your move as a swift action for one minute. You gain additional uses from turn undead or through another travel devotion.
The splitting enchantment(+3 bow) from the Champions of Ruin is a must for any multi-shot build. All your arrows fired become two.

 

[Azaar]

I agree and I don't think it is overpowered or anything. You should talk to your DM about it.

If melee guys can get Pounce (full attack on a charge), why can't ranged dudes get something similar (full attack with a move if you accept a penalty to AC or something).

Because the game is heavily slanted in favor of melee, I suppose. Ranged combat (unless you're an arcanist of some sort, whether sorcerer/warlock/warmage/wizard/whatever) tends to be seriously less powerful than melee combatants -- TWF doesn't give near the penalties to attacks that Manyshot does, for instance, allowing melee to dish out significantly more damage.

Greater TWF at Ranger 16, for instance, gives you seven attacks in a full-round attack action: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1 (this is assuming either TWF with light offhand weapon or with Oversized TWF, either way, and not including STR or DEX modifiers, depending on whether you're going the Weapon Finesse route or not). By contrast, Manyshot at Ranger 16 -- +8/+8/+8/+8 (not including BAB boosts or DEX modifier, or counting additional penalties due to range increments).

Just from eyeballing it, melee TWF has the obvious edge in nearly double the number of attacks (and it can be boosted to eight with the epic Perfect TWF feat). Ranged might get the edge when it comes to actually making hits (depending solely on just how far you can take your DEX into the stratosphere, as opposed to the melee fighter's STR or DEX), but even so, ranged still has to take an additional feat (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Greater Manyshot) to get the benefit of "equal attacks" (in that you can actually be allowed to get more than one critical hit) that melee gets in three feats with the TWF tree.

*ahem* Anyway...

Well there is, it is called travel devotion. This allows you to take your move as a swift action for one minute. You gain additional uses from turn undead or through another travel devotion.
The splitting enchantment(+3 bow) from the Champions of Ruin is a must for any multi-shot build. All your arrows fired become two.

Huh. Sounds like an uber-Manyshot or Rapid Shot without the drawbacks (though Rapid Shot can be offset with Improved Rapid Shot from Complete Warrior, since it negates the -2 penalty). Still, though... I dunno. I looked over the Demon Hunter intro video several times today, and everything I saw screamed Ranger/Scout multiclass with some Combat Trapsmith and other PrCs thrown in -- a predominantly ranged skirmishing combatant. But the mechanics of D&D keep that from being a reality... unless that Lesser Celerity and Celerity spells (PHB 2, I think?) were accessible to grant the extra move action/standard action, though it dazes you after that spell-granted action until the end of your next turn.

 

[kitcik]

Huh. Sounds like an uber-Manyshot or Rapid Shot without the drawbacks (though Rapid Shot can be offset with Improved Rapid Shot from Complete Warrior, since it negates the -2 penalty). Still, though... I dunno. I looked over the Demon Hunter intro video several times today, and everything I saw screamed Ranger/Scout multiclass with some Combat Trapsmith and other PrCs thrown in -- a predominantly ranged skirmishing combatant. But the mechanics of D&D keep that from being a reality... unless that Lesser Celerity and Celerity spells (PHB 2, I think?) were accessible to grant the extra move action/standard action, though it dazes you after that spell-granted action until the end of your next turn.

Again, [MENTION=97812]emoplato[/MENTION] is correct. Travel Devotion lets you move as a swift action. This allows you to move and take a full round action in the same turn.

 

[Azaar]

I understand how Travel Devotion works. I just feel leery about a feat that probably would need to be taken more than once (unless you're a cleric or paladin with the ability to turn/rebuke undead), especially given how limited the selection of feats would be to begin with. It wouldn't be so bad if this were predominantly a Fighter build, since they have plenty of bonus feats to grab most all the necessities, but most any other class is going to be rather limited in that regard.

I did look at Combat Trapsmith a bit earlier today -- combat trapping seems a nice special ability, though most of the traps leave something to be desired. I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps a limited spellcasting progression like what the Paladin or Ranger have might be preferable. Only potential problem is that those would be limited, and I'm not sure I'd want to try the "per encounter" thing introduced in Tome of Battle, even though that would potentially work a bit better in certain respects. I'd prefer to keep that aspect of the class creation rather simple, since I think doing a hybrid of ranger and scout as a basis for the class, would be the best bet.