Dice Bucket Engines - *why*?

[tomBitonti]

This is quite obvious.
So it seems that you don't need a dice pool to get degrees of success, you don't need a dice pool to get a non-flat distribution of results, and you don't need a dice pool to get both. That being said, I do appreciate the effort that people are putting in answering my question!

Bold added by me. Additional text omitted.

I'm not following this point. For WarHammer, rolling d100 to roll less than 51, the chance of success is 50%, and the chance of 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 degrees of failure is 10% for each. (Or 20%, if you start with the having rolled success.) That is a flat distribution.

Using http://anydice.com/ with 9d2-9, this distribution results:

0 0.20
1 1.76
2 7.03
3 16.41
4 24.61
5 24.61
6 16.41
7 7.03
8 1.76
9 0.20

That is, each die has a 50% of success, and 5 or more successes are needed to succeed at the task.

Then, 1 success is at 25%, 2 successes at 16%, 3 successes at 7%, 4 successes at 2%, and 5 successes at 0.2%.

I'm not sure how you would get a non-flat distribution without rolling multiple dice.

But, I think this is a terminology question: I would consider a fixed collection of multiple dice to be a dice pool, although, that doesn't seem to be the usual terminology.

Maybe we should step aside from the terminology and ask a more basic question:

Why adjust success and failure by using a fixed die (say, d20), a target number, and modifiers to either the die roll or to the target number (to hit bonus, armor class bonus), instead of having a variable pool of dice and with modifiers either to the number of dice rolled or to the number of successes needed?

There is a second part of the question, which is not why use one mechanic or the other, but where to use either mechanic. For example, D20 uses a target number, but rolls damage using a dice pool (e.g., fireball, or sneak attack).

Thx!
TomB

 

[Ancalagon]

[MENTION=14853]Tom[/MENTION]bitoni , see my answer to Morus. Briefly, a fixed dice could be 3d6. A dice pool is where the number of dice for a skill check of some source is variable.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using EN World mobile app

 

[pemerton]

I must admit I'm not sure if I understand correctly... Could you give me a an example or two?

I think your exchange with [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] mostly covers it.

I don't know Exalted (except by reputation) but I'm familiar with it from Burning Wheel.

A character who rolls 2 dice against an obstacle of 1 has three possible results: 0 (fail), 1 (success), 2 (success with an extra success if degrees of success matter).

A character who rolls 5 dice against the same obstacle is very like to succeed, and most likely will get extra degrees of success, but still has a chance to fail, or to get a bare success.

It's hard to replicate this in a system based on a single die (be that d20 or 3d6 or whatever) plus adds, even if you set a rule like 1 (or 3 or whatever) equals auto-fail.

Rolemaster-style open-ended systems come closer, but the BW system gives a more graduated range of prospects for failure or higher success, compared to the narrow triggering bands for open-ended rolls (eg 0-5 and 96-100 in RM).

I hope that makes some sense!

(Also: it's not a reason for dice pools being better; it's just an interesting way in which they're different, and my play of BW has let me feel the difference.)

 

[Jhaelen]

Well, I guess, ultimately it's a matter of preference, but I wouldn't dismiss a system based on the kind of dice mechanics it uses.

E.g. while I dislike Shadowrun's dice pools it's the fiddliness of the system, and the number of different subsystems that are the real reason I wouldn't want to run the system. FFG's Star Wars with its custom dice, though, is a really cool system with a wide open class system and somewhat abstracted cinematic combat system.

And I enjoy playing D&D 4e despite the shortcomings of the overly simple d20 system because of the clever tactical combat system and highly customizable skill challenges. I'm decidedly less enthusiastic about D&D 5e.

Sometimes it _does_ make an important difference, though, e.g. I much prefer 'Trail of Cthulhu' driven by Gumshoe's automatically successful investigative skills and point-pool spending over 'Call of Cthulhu's' percentile system with its Runequest roots. I feel it's a better fit for the kind of stories I'd want to run in a Mythos-themed game.

 

[Yaztromo]

I noticed that new roleplayers grasp the concept quite quickly (assumin the number of dices is kept under reasonable control) and I (very humbly) guess part of the appeal comes from the similarity to Risk tabletop game in handling dices that is probably very familiar to many new roleplayers.

 

[trancejeremy]

I sometimes wonder if this is a generational thing. Growing up in the '70s, there were all sorts of dice games that involved 5 dice. Liar's Dice and Yahtzee comes to mind. Zilch/Zonk (now called Farkle) used 6, so did some others. Boggle had 16 dice (with letters, but still dice).

And back then, calculators were kinda rare, so adding up a 5-8 dice was something you could just do automatically, since you'd been taught addition by rote. I know West End Games had to come up with a simpler version of their D6 system because they found out that many modern (well, 1990s) had trouble with that.

 

[aramis erak]

I sometimes wonder if this is a generational thing. Growing up in the '70s, there were all sorts of dice games that involved 5 dice. Liar's Dice and Yahtzee comes to mind. Zilch/Zonk (now called Farkle) used 6, so did some others. Boggle had 16 dice (with letters, but still dice).

And back then, calculators were kinda rare, so adding up a 5-8 dice was something you could just do automatically, since you'd been taught addition by rote. I know West End Games had to come up with a simpler version of their D6 system because they found out that many modern (well, 1990s) had trouble with that.

D6 legend...

Wild Die: 1 fumble, 2 fail, 3-5 success, 6, open end.
Standard dice 1-2 fail, 3-6 success

Fumble is, at GM's option, -1 success, or success at cost.

Used in WEG's later DC licenses... Batman RPG, I believe.

Inability to do chain additions is endemic in the current youth as well. Was a major hassle in running T&T, L5R, WEG SW, and similar.
EABA helped by only counting 3 or 4 dice. Many have their 1-10 addition facts well memorized.