Did any DM actually RUN the FR that way?

[Codragon]

No I did not

To the OP: I didn't. I've run FR since the grey box and never had the "uber-NPC problem". And I don't read/use material from the FR novels in my games.

 

[BlackMoria]

I disagree. The presence of high level divinations, information spells, and teleport means that Elminster can be effectively omnipresent.

You need to come up with a really good reason why he would not know about something.

The burden of proof is on you.

Scrying - you have to either have something of the subject, have knowledge of the subject or a connection to the subject. Sorry, no help there.

Divination - gives advice to actions but really doesn't give any knowledge about a subject to act on.

Locate Creature / Locate Object - object or subject must be known

Contact Other Plane - no help here. Your playing roulette with yes / no / maybe answers with a chance of a untruthful answer on each question.

Discern Location - you must have seen the creature or handled an object.

Teleport - you gotta find me first. That's the rub. And if I am a competent bad guy, you will not even get close (lots of ways to foil teleport).

Sorry - the bottom line.... unless you know I exist as a threat and know something about either me or something I own that is usable in a spell, you're coming up empty. No spell of Elminister is going to help him find an unknown threat.

Unless your party is going to travel to Shadowdale and tell him about the secret cult your party has unearthed. And isn't that what this thread is all about? If the party does that, then they can't decry Elminster swooping in and fixing the problem.

 

[Gwathlas]

When it comes to 4th ed, I have my concerns, plus I'm content with 3rd (which is something I couldn't say about 2nd). However the recent Blog Comments about FR have set off some really loud warning bells in my head.

Mainly, their percieved "issues" with FR I see as Strengths or never have encountered.


(3) In 4E FR, the PCs matter. The PCs are the ones accomplishing the truly heroic quests. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't.

I've played in 100's of FR games. I've ran 100's more. I've NEVER, EVER encountered this in ANY FR games I've played in. (However, I have played in some really bad games when the DM had a 'pet' NPC, usually one of his former PC's basically do everything). If Elminster shows up to kill the dragon to steal the PC's thunder all the time, the problem is the DM, not the Campaign setting. I like have uber-pc's around to both challenge and keep PC's in check (had one FR Skills & Powers go from 1st to 37th level, only once did an Uber-PC step in, that was at 5th level when they released 45 Fire Elementals on the Docks at Waterdeep).

Ok, there was the time the PC said "I wish Elminster was here right now so you could kiss his hairy, naked ass!" while weaing a Ring of Three Wishes. In that case he asked for it, plus going on a quest for Bigby's Painless Hiney Hair Removal Underpants of Power was too hard to pass up.

I've alwayes used the Uber-FR Character as Ideals for the PC's to strive for. As real examples that the sky is the limit in FR.

If bad DM'ing is the problem, taking away the Uber-Guys ain't going to help.


(6) The 4E FR setting will have a smaller pantheon. In general, there will be less overlap in the gods' portfolios. Consequently, some 3E deities have been 'demoted,' effectively becoming agents or emissaries of more powerful gods. A handful of deities have been killed off. There are also a few new deities to fill holes.


This is the real killer for me. Overlap is good. Very good. Very similar faiths make for the best plot lines. Groups that to an outsider look identical, but their minor differences lead to such friction between the two. Like the Catholics & Protestants. 2 Groups of Christians with very similar ideologies that still spent a good amount of time killing each other over thos differences. And the various protestant sects are an even better example. My most memorable games all took minor faiths & put my own spin on them (or that particular sect) and ran with it.

The best game I ran was one where the main enemy was a Drow High Priest. A MALE high drow priest of Sevltegram (however you spell it). Took the party by surprise & darn near took out the entire party. Of course, Complex Racial patheons seem to have all gotten the ax for 4th ed.

I just don't see me switching to 4th ed.

It's not the rules (I'm sure they will be very good, some smart people putting a lot of time into it).

But the fluff changes (so far) have really started to make me very suspicious.

I like the Demons & Devils being similar, yet having minor distinctions that drive them to genocide. I LIKE that the average lay person can't tell wether it's a Demon or a Devil (Never was a fan of "Color Coded for your conveince" Dragons).

I've ran dozens of adventures on the Elemental Planes (some pretty low leve), and never once had a problem.

I liek complexity. Simplicity can only take you so far. Ideally you have simplistic overtures to get you started & layers of complexity you can dive into as you get better at DM'ing.



I'm just not getting it.

They keep talking about all these things (fluff-wise) that they are 'fixing', that I've just never encountered the problems they think are there.

Maybe I've been DM'ing for so long and in so many Campaign Worlds & Game Systems that I can make adjustments on the fly. (from an adventure standpoint, that is what I do).


Ok, a long way to ask:

What they keep saying are problems, I haven't noticed. Can people post some of their actual experiences to help me understand the thought process of the designers.

It could go a long ways to easing my nervousness about what's being done to the sandbox.

I agree with you, the changes they are making are just for changes sake to sell more books. Not to improve the game from where I sit. And damn I've never had Elminster or other great NPC's never dropped into my games!

 

[Treacherous_B]

It doesn't make any sense to me to remove the "uber-NPCs" from the world, because by doing so you make it seem as if only the party and evil-doers are allowed to reach "uber" status. And while some players might enjoy thinking their characters are so special that they're the only ones who can break, say, 15th level, there are players like myself who would find that notion incredibly lame. The only way that kind of excessive PC-favoritism would truck with me is if my character was visited by a god and told of his/her incredible destiny - but what is a god when used in such a way if not another flavor of "uber-NPC"?