Differences in powergaming in 1st/2nd and 3.0/3.5

[Hussar]

As far as powergaming in 1e was concerned, it really helps to look at the challenges 1e PC's were facing. When the absolute biggest non-unique creature only has about 100 hp, how much powergaming do you really have to do? A 10th level 1e character was effectively epic as far as combat was concerned. Nothing could come anywhere near him without dying in very short order.

You didn't powergame in 1e because there was absolutely no need.

2e helped a little by beefing up some of the monsters, but, still, by and large, a 10th level group was wading through all but the largest of dragons without any really serious threat.

3e is the first version of the game intended for play all the way to 20th level.

 

[Victim]

I think before power gaming was mostly a matter of picking the most powerful race and/or kit (or class) you could get away with. After that all the work was already done. Plus maybe some creative interpretations of spells.

Now it's more of continueing process, since the player has to select stuff every level.

Plus really high stat rolls. But that's a constant.

 

[S'mon]

I agree with the OP. When I ran 3e until the end of last year, even my powergamer player told me I'd be better off running a different system (now C&C) because 3e was too constraining & rules focused for my GMing style. Even playing 1 melee fighter PC in 3e takes a lot of number crunching as you calculate the round-by-round effects of Power Attack, Bull's Strength, Ray of Enfeeblement, spider poison et al; for a GM it can get nightmarish. I only have so much brain processing capacity; if it all goes on 'crunch' I have none left for 'fluff' - the actual roleplaying stuff.

 

[Ron]

Sadrik is on the spot. When playing AD&D, the players have to trust their DM will reasonably use the rules or wing when necessary in order that all have fun. However, d20 D&D allow a lot of power in character building that, by the rules, take a lot of power from the DM. In my experience, to have a good balance in the current edition, the players will have to trust the DM even more, as he need to blatantly contradict the rules sometimes to enforce some balance in the campaign and keep the fun.

Unlike AD&D, where the rules did not covered much, d20 rules are very inclusive. As such, there will be points where the DM will have to rule out some prestige classes, feats or spells to keep the gaming going well. The players have to trust his/her decision as the DM obviously should know better what is good to his/her game than any WotC designer, despite of what they might want to sell.

Developing this kind of thrust is hard. I play with the same people for 20 years and thus we trust one or the other with little restrictions. Some were phased out of the DM place as they didn't earned the necessary trust. Overall, we play very organic as group, but it took a long time and the removal of some disrupting players.

In my game, some spells were removed from the game, prestige classes are accessible only by invitation and only the core books are allowed. I don't waste my time doing NPC by the book but I rather write their important stats, even knowing that they might not be possible by the rules. Although we have a rules lawyer -- who actually knows the rules better than anybody else -- he accepts well when the DM says he don't care about what it is written in the book but in what is dramatically appropriate.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't be confortable playing in any other way. In the end, d20 D&D offered better mechanics but take away some of the fun of DMing as now I have to pay much more attention to what the players are doing compared to what was need at the AD&D times. Probably a question of taste.

 

[donremus]

1st was all about the dual classing. I remember a 15 Ranger/16 Archer (from Dragon), a 16 Cleric/18 Magic user. With the experience points and level progression going back to 1st level, It was nothing to move up from 1st to 10th in a hurry. Take about 10 levels of Fighter to beef up the hit points and then move into the class you wanted.
Ahh good times.

I look back in fondness to 1st Ed but there's no way level progression was faster back then. IIRC some classes needed 350,000 xp per level beyond 9th.

The OP fails to compare the edtions with regard to powergaming but I would say it's much more prevalent in 3rd. 1st Ed had more focus on roleplaying (you had to back then) rather than the rules hungry 3rd.

 

[Campbell]

Developing this kind of thrust is hard. I play with the same people for 20 years and thus we thrust one or the other with little restrictions.

Speaking personally, I'm alright with my players not thrusting me. I've found it makes for a better game.

 

[donremus]

Speaking personally, I'm alright with my players not thrusting me. I've found it makes for a better game.

LOL! We have no thrusting either, it's not live action roleplaying after all

Edited: Sorry Ron, just noticed you're in Rio. I would not even know where to start posting in Portuguese

 

[Sound of Azure]

thrust

That word.... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Trust me.

 

[Turanil]

As it is now powergaming, which did exist in 1st and 2nd, but is way out of proportional control.

I remember a thread, once, where someone detailed how to build up a paladin (only using PHB/DMG base rules) who could deal 250 hp of damage in one blow (provided he would be charging on his mount, using smite, etc.)...

 

[Ron]

LOL! We have no thrusting either, it's not live action roleplaying after all

Edited: Sorry Ron, just noticed you're in Rio. I would not even know where to start posting in Portuguese

No offense taken. I should know better not to trust the computer's spelling checker. Now that I realize the problem was kind of funny to re-read some passages.