Different Power Sources - Different Mechanics

[half-dragon dragon]

After having read the D&D kitbash thread, it reminded me of one thing that I did enjoy from 3E. That was the differing mechanics between some of the 'power sources' in that edition such as Incarnum, Psionics, Shadow magic, etc. While I do like the streamlining that 4E introduced, I did wonder what the different power sources would be like if they used differing mechanics instead of a unified power system.

So my question to you kind folks is this: Given a hypothetical D&D and you were asked to design the mechanics behind each of the power sources in 4E, how would you envision them?

For an example of what I'm hoping to get from y'all, here are my ideas for each of the power sources (you needn't elaborate on all of them).

Martial: Crossroads of skills, feats, and weapons with a healthy dash of ‘freeformity‘. Essentially feats would act as ‘guideposts’ along the character’s fighting style and skills would provide the means of executing maneuvers similar to skill stunts in other games. So one might take the feat Two-Weapon Fighting and use appropriate skills to perform two-weapon stunts.

Arcane: Would use a spell-slot system very much like Arcana Evolved’s.

Divine: I think it would be cool if this power source had a central mechanic (not sure at the moment) as well as a Domain feature where depending upon the god, the character would be able to dip into another power source. For example, worshippers of Kord would get limited access to the martial power source.

Primal: This power source might use a system that blends a bit of the incarnum and pact magic system. Basically the characters would have totems/animal forms that gave a ‘bundle’ of powers dependent on the totem/form.

Psionic: I happen to still like the power point system, so psionics would still use it. I’d also keep the augmentation system but tweak how powers were built. In general the powers would fewer and more generic with augments allowing fine tuning of powers.

Ki: Not really sure about this one, maybe something similar to martial, or even wrap it up into martial.

Shadow: I have absolutely no idea where to begin with this one. Perhaps for the illusions aspect of this power source, a system of mimicking other power sources and determining how real the illusion might be kinda cool. As for the necromantic part, could be divorced or use a slightly different system.

Elemental: I basically see this one as the more chaotic cousin of arcane magic. Thus I would say a wild magic system would be cool. At least as long as it didn’t completely screw you over for rolling poorly. I see it as being structured in a way where powers are pretty broad, probably pertaining to an element, and from there rolling to see what extra effects are wrought by the power.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, I probably wouldn't want to do that, being a fan of 4E "one system fits them all", but if I absolutely had to, I might do something like this:

0) All
Skills and Feats are the core of all characters.
Maneuvers, Spells, Prayers, are all stuff people can just learn - they don't even need XP for it (though you might learn some of them by leveling). Higher Level Abilities are more difficult to pull off.

1) Martial Power Source
Maneuvers (Exploits) would consist of two core concepts.
- Set Up Attack
- Finishing Blow
I can see a "tiered" system. Tier 1 Maneuvers are simple, along the lines of the 4E Basic/At-Will Attacks. Tier 2 Maneuvers require one setup action (which is in line with a 4E Basic Attack) or something like Combat Advantage, and the effect would be akin to an encounter power.
Tier 3 Maneuvers require two setup action or a setup action and Combat Advantage. The effect would be akin to a daily power.
Higher Level Powers require you to beat a certain minimum DC, regardless of other aspects, so if a 3rd level Fighter tries to pull of a 20th level power, he would probably fail against the minimum DC.

2) Arcane Power Source
There are a lot of spellcasting models in existence, and each has its merits.
I think there are two concepts:
Using the tiers again, but this time, the setup action has no effect and is just casting time. To compensate, the Tier 2 and Tier 3 powers will be slightly more powerful. You still need to beat the powers DC.

Alternatively, a Vancian Approach
You have a Cast DC and a "Retain DC". If you fail the Retain DC, the spell is gone from your memory.
Tier 1 Powers would have Retain DC = Cast DC -5
Tier 2 Powers would have Retain DC = Cast DC +0
Tier 3 Powers would have Retain DC = Cast DC +5
Rememorizing a Tier 1 spell takes a short rest, otherwise it takes an Extended Rest.

3) Divine Power Source
A gimmick of Divine Spells in Torg was that the Faithful could "lose" access to his prayers if he failed his check. My Vancian approach is also based on this idea. Something like this might also work here.
Unlike Spells, Prayers would have no different casting times.

So, there would be a Casting DC and a Faith DC. If you beat the Faith DC, you can keep the power, if not, you lose it and must recover it. (I assume this would take something like a Short Rest, though you have to roll again to see if you keep it. If you fail again, take an extended rest. If you fail again, the prayer is lost forever, and you have to relearn it entirely.)

Tier 1 Powers would have Faith DC = Casting DC
Tier 2 Powers would have Faith DC = Casting DC +5
Tier 2 Powers would have Faith DC = Casting DC +10.
(again, first guesses on the modifiers)

4) Psionics
As an option, I might consider a drain based mechanic - your brain replaces your bodies muscles to manifest some effects.

Each power has a Manifest DC and a Drain DC. If you beat the Drain DC, you suffer no penalties, if you beat the Casting DC, the power manifests. (You still also need to "hit" with your power)
Tier 1 Powers will have Drain DC = Manifest DC
Tier 2 Powers will have a Drain DC = Manifest DC +5
Tier 3 Powers will have a Drain DC = Manifest DC +10.
So while you might always be able to cast an equal level power, it is likely that you take some drain damage. It pays off to cast lower level powers.

I don't know about other types of powers.

 

[doctorhook]

After having read the D&D kitbash thread, it reminded me of one thing that I did enjoy from 3E. That was the differing mechanics between some of the 'power sources' in that edition such as Incarnum, Psionics, Shadow magic, etc. While I do like the streamlining that 4E introduced, I did wonder what the different power sources would be like if they used differing mechanics instead of a unified power system.

So my question to you kind folks is this: Given a hypothetical D&D and you were asked to design the mechanics behind each of the power sources in 4E, how would you envision them?

For an example of what I'm hoping to get from y'all, here are my ideas for each of the power sources (you needn't elaborate on all of them).

Martial: Crossroads of skills, feats, and weapons with a healthy dash of ‘freeformity‘. Essentially feats would act as ‘guideposts’ along the character’s fighting style and skills would provide the means of executing maneuvers similar to skill stunts in other games. So one might take the feat Two-Weapon Fighting and use appropriate skills to perform two-weapon stunts.

Arcane: Would use a spell-slot system very much like Arcana Evolved’s.

Divine: I think it would be cool if this power source had a central mechanic (not sure at the moment) as well as a Domain feature where depending upon the god, the character would be able to dip into another power source. For example, worshippers of Kord would get limited access to the martial power source.

Primal: This power source might use a system that blends a bit of the incarnum and pact magic system. Basically the characters would have totems/animal forms that gave a ‘bundle’ of powers dependent on the totem/form.

Psionic: I happen to still like the power point system, so psionics would still use it. I’d also keep the augmentation system but tweak how powers were built. In general the powers would fewer and more generic with augments allowing fine tuning of powers.

Ki: Not really sure about this one, maybe something similar to martial, or even wrap it up into martial.

Shadow: I have absolutely no idea where to begin with this one. Perhaps for the illusions aspect of this power source, a system of mimicking other power sources and determining how real the illusion might be kinda cool. As for the necromantic part, could be divorced or use a slightly different system.

Elemental: I basically see this one as the more chaotic cousin of arcane magic. Thus I would say a wild magic system would be cool. At least as long as it didn’t completely screw you over for rolling poorly. I see it as being structured in a way where powers are pretty broad, probably pertaining to an element, and from there rolling to see what extra effects are wrought by the power.

You're right, having different mechanics for each power source could make things that much more interesting, but consider that the mechanical differences between power sources (both in their historical forms and as you suggest above) are fairly arbitrary.

I like the "one mechanic fits all" approach to power sources used in 4E, because I appreciate its simplicity and straightforwardness. Yep, it's arbitrary too, but the advantage is that it's universal and therefore constant. Furthermore, for the purposes you've outlined above, I think you should like 4E's approach too! (Bear with me for a moment.)

A unified power system gives you a convenient baseline for developing new powers (and mechanics relating to those powers). Assuming that you're interested in maintaining balance between your power source systems, it would be wise to build using that baseline as a foundation, rather than trying to emulate the various structures of previous editions; it's much more difficult to compare balance when each power source is developed from a separate baseline. (Don't forget that one of 3.5E's biggest problems was widely disparate levels of capability between its "power sources"; 3.5E Fighters versus Wizards is the classic example.)

I'm curious to see what you come up with!

 

[Remathilis]

The one thing I didn't like after a while was the tying of power source to new mechanic (psionics/PP, Incarnum/Chaka, etc), because it became hideously hard for a DM to determine of X was balanced. 3.0 psionics did too good a job reigning in 2e psionics, to the point of ineptitude. 3.5 fixed some issues but still was hit-or-miss compared to a wizard. Incarnum was widely regarded as weak compared to magic, while Martial Stances all but overwhelmed PHB-classes like fighter and monk. And lets not forget about the weaksauce shadow magic became!

That said, I'm not entirely sure how to make the power sources mechanically different. The obvious would be to re-balance the current ones (making Martial the default for fighters and such) but I'm not about to wager HOW that could be done.

 

[half-dragon dragon]

Thanks for all the replies so far folks!

In regards to the concerns of balance and whatnot about different mechanics, I should have put a disclaimer that I really have no desire put these different mechanics into play. I'm just really curious to see how others would want the different power sources implemented in mechanically unique way.

As far as 4e goes, I did mention that I still liked its streamlined nature. I'm a big fan of unified systems, and right now 4e is the only version of D&D that I'm actually willing to play. I guess the only thing I would have cared to see in 4e along the lines of this thread is perhaps a shared aspect between all classes of a particular power source, very much like the divine classes' channel divinity feature.

 

[Oni]

I like the idea that different things operate, well, differently.

 

[SKyOdin]

A detail that a lot of people tend to overlook is that different power sources in 4E do have mechanical differences. While they are more subtle than in previous editions, they are there.

For example, most Martial Attack powers do x[w]+y damage. On the other hand, most Arcane and Divine powers do damage independent of any weapon. Also, the reliable trait is almost exclusively found on Martial powers, but no Martial power creates Zones or Conjurations. These differences are subtle, but they do lend a lot to the flavor and feel of each power source.

 

[Rechan]

A detail that a lot of people tend to overlook is that different power sources in 4E do have mechanical differences. While they are more subtle than in previous editions, they are there.

For example, most Martial Attack powers do x[w]+y damage. On the other hand, most Arcane and Divine powers do damage independent of any weapon. Also, the reliable trait is almost exclusively found on Martial powers, but no Martial power creates Zones or Conjurations. These differences are subtle, but they do lend a lot to the flavor and feel of each power source.

Martial characters also get stances.

My issue with the variant systems that the other classes had, was that the variant system was the only real difference. Take psionics. Psions literally were wizards who used a spell pool.

If they were to use different systems, I hope that there would be something more distinct between them. The difference between how a Swordmage, Paladin and Fighter are all defenders, but do it in vastly different ways.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Considering that one thing that I severely dislike about 4e is the "everyone's vancian!" system, I'm a HUGE fan of this.

New mechanics are exciting and interesting and have dynamic interactions.

That said, they're also a bit tough to balance, because they all would use different systems for that "balance." This leads to a lot of Accidental Suck.

I believe it's not impossible, it's just tough, and I would really, really want it.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I think I may end up using 4E as a base for a homebrew system that combines things from a few previous editions of the game. I'm not too sure what I'll be doing at this point.

For starters I would like the expand the wizard spellbook. I'd like wizards to be able to have a lot of spells in their spellbooks and select a set for the day much like they used to. That could mean they have a selection of 4E powers in their spellbooks and fill their quota of powers from their selection each day, or a more drastic change like converting spells from older editions into 4E mechanics.

In the latter case the frequency of use of spells could either be decided per spell, or the frequency could be related to the level of the spell relative to the level of the wizard. At character level one a level one spell may be an at will, encounter, or daily depending on the spell; at character level ten all level one spells may be at will.

I haven't given it too much thought beyond identifying that I'd like to tinker. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for ideas to mine.