Diplomacy and adjusting an NPC's attitude

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Frostmarrow said:
I am aware that you can disregard the rules for social interaction and just play the game the way feels the most natural. However, since I've been complaining about said rules - and we haven't even been playing the way the rulebook says - I should at least try that before complaining more. :eek:

That's actually a good point. In my game, I specifically set out to stick to the rules as written for a while while we learned 3E before we started to significantly depart from them.
If you're dissatisfied with how things are going, spend a little time more consciously going over those rules and playing them out for a little bit. That may help you and your DM depart from them in a more consistent and fair fashion.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

shilsen

Adventurer
Frostmarrow said:
I think that your method, Shilsen, is what most DMs use (or try to use). However, it's not according to the rules. I hope you agree (otherwise I'm at a loss here).

Actually I'd say my method isn't exactly by the rules, but is fairly close. The rules say that the DM assigns the original attitude and that the player makes a Diplomacy check to change said attitude (both of which we use). The only change I make is providing a bonus (which is usually +2 or -2, so it's not a big difference) for roleplaying.
 

I basically use the same method as shilsen (which I just described on a thread in General), which is essentially the book method.

The player's actions (ie, RP) determine what occurs; the skill check determines the success of the action (ie, the resultant atitude of the NPC). We can have a long RP session with multiple diplomacy checks, as each check only moves the NPC's attitude one category, usually.

It allows players who are themselves not charismatic to play charismatic characters and still be successful.
 

Frostmarrow

First Post
shilsen said:
Actually I'd say my method isn't exactly by the rules, but is fairly close. The rules say that the DM assigns the original attitude and that the player makes a Diplomacy check to change said attitude (both of which we use). The only change I make is providing a bonus (which is usually +2 or -2, so it's not a big difference) for roleplaying.

If that's the case I'll have to agree. Even the +2/-2 thingy is completely by the rules (the DM's best friend and all that).

This is also what I'm getting at. You say that you use the changing of attitudes, indifferent to friendly to helpful. This sounds interesting. I wonder how common it is to take attitudes into account? Do you allow several player's taking a shot at influencing attitudes or do you keep track of whomever does the most talking? [Oh yes, you do. I just re-read your first post.]


Olgar Shiverstone said:
I basically use the same method as shilsen (which I just described on a thread in General), which is essentially the book method.

The player's actions (ie, RP) determine what occurs; the skill check determines the success of the action (ie, the resultant atitude of the NPC). We can have a long RP session with multiple diplomacy checks, as each check only moves the NPC's attitude one category, usually.

It allows players who are themselves not charismatic to play charismatic characters and still be successful.

You seem to be spot on. Do you always consider interaction as an attempt to influence attitudes or is it something the players need to state that they consciously do?

I think it's important that players get the benefits of having lots of ranks in a skill. At the same time I don't want constant skill checks to get in the way of actual player-DM interaction. Also I don't want the players without ranks in social skills not participating in the social encounters.

We've only recognised two attitudes in our game. Friendly and Hostile. We've never really explored the others. For example an Unfriendly NPC could be very interesting indeed.
 
Last edited:

shilsen

Adventurer
Frostmarrow said:
If that's the case I'll have to agree. Even the +2/-2 thingy is completely by the rules (the DM's best friend and all that).

This is also what I'm getting at. You say that you use the changing of attitudes, indifferent to friendly to helpful. This sounds interesting. I wonder how common it is to take attitudes into account?

I have no idea how common this is, but that's the way the rules are set up, and I think they work fine. I can't see how one would use Diplomacy effectively without taking initial attitude into account. A few sessions ago the PCs got a lot of help from the head of a mage guild one was a member of. The wizard, who was doing the talking, had a pretty lousy Diplomacy score, but he got a good roll. If one of the more diplomatic PCs had been speaking, the head mage would have been indifferent (as starting attitude), but since it was another guild-member, he started as friendly and the good roll shifted his attitude to helpful.

You seem to be spot on. Do you always consider interaction as an attempt to influence attitudes or is it something the players need to state that they consciously do?

I knwo this question was for Olgar, but I'll chip in anyway. I usually consider any meaningful interaction an attempt to change attitudes, whether the players state it or not.

We've only recognised two attitudes in our game. Friendly and Hostile. We've never really explored the others. For example an Unfriendly NPC could be very interesting indeed.

I'd suggest using the other attitudes too, since they provide a lot more levels for NPCs to come in at. I'd say indifferent should be the most common, actually, unless the PCs are either very famous or infamous.
 

BSF

Explorer
OK, I was going to post this yesterday when the boards had SQL errors. I saved it to a window on my workstation at work. Now that I have a free moment, EN World is running good, and need to reboot, I will post it now.

~~~~~

A few comments on the social skills - They should be useful, but they should not completely replace RP. That being said, how much should RP influence the mechanic? That is a good question. +2/-2 is an easy mechanic to take into account. I might also take into account existing relationships. The Paladin guarding entrance to the Holy Temple might react much more favorable to the LG fighter that belongs to a knightly order than he does to the vaguely disreputable, well-known womanizing Bard. How do you reflect that? You can either assign bonuses and penalties to the check, of you can start both characters off at different attitudes.

The only problem with this is when you are trying to gain a benefit for the entire party. In that case, maybe the Bard with morals the Paladin disapproves of drops the NPC attitude for the party in general (Lowest common denominator and all that stuff). I might DM it like this: The Bard's diplomacy comes into play (Since he is a social monkey and has the best bonuses by far) as he tries to explain how he has changed his ways (Perhaps since meeting his knightly buddy.) and he isn't the same person the rumors say he is. Perhaps the paladin gets a Sense Motive to see if this is complete BS. The knight pipes in to confirm the change of heart for the Bard, which might give the Bard a +2 for an assist on the Diplomacy check. After all that, if the party has RP'd it well, I might tack on an additional +2. Then, the dice are rolled and the bonuses are applied and we check to see if the Paladin has been swayed by the Bard's diplomatic efforts - this would be reflected in a change of attitude.

This is a rather convoluted example, but it shows the types of things that I consider when a Diplomacy check comes up. That being said, there are times when a Diplomacy/Intimidate check is going to be nearly impossible to pull off. As an example, I will point to an alternate view of Frostmarrow's above example.

Sure a 36 is dang impressive as far as an Intimidate check goes. Heck, a 16th level character would need to roll a 20 just to match that result. But, that assumes a relatively normal condition. Consider if this particular guard has a wife and 3 children. He also has a sister he cares for and his elderly mother. The inquisition chose him as a guard because they are using his family as leverage. IF a captive escapes while he is on watch, his family will be tortured and their souls consigned to hell, while he watches. He will then be tortured until he is broken and then he will be sacrificed as well. Afterward, all of their bodies will be animated to work pump the sewers below the city until they fall apart. However, if he falls doing his duty, his family will be taken care of until his son can take up a profession. This NPC has nothing to gain by being intimidated. Death is a terrible option, but at least his family will survive and they will all meet again in the afterlife. For dealing with this NPC, my plaers would have to come up with a better idea than an Intimidate check. A successful intimidate check just proves to the NPC that he should begin praying to the diety of his choice before he lunges. An intimidate check of that magnitude might even leave him a bit shaken, so he is even less likely to hurt the PC's.

If you, as a player, accused me, as a DM, of simply being unprepared for the encounter to go differently than I planned, you would be wrong. Instead, I would have been crafting the encounter to demonstrate exactly how bad the Inquisition is, and to give the PC's a moral dilema. The NPC can't let them past, his family will be tortured and sacrificed. But, the PC's might be killing somebody that is just as much a victim of the Inquisition as the captured PC's are. How do you resolve that? This is an easy example to construct because I have used similar situations in my games.

Regarding NPC Attitudes, the rules allow for a change of more than 1 category. There is nothing explicitly stated as to how quickly you can use a new check to change the attitude again. I would have to kind of wing this with a general rule that if you are trying to change a recently changed attitude, you have to wait a day. Though a week might be appropriate as well. Basically, I am not going to let a PC make 3 changes in the span of 3 minutes to go from unfriendly to indifferent to friendly to helpful. Think about how long it takes for you to get over an initial first impression of a person. It might be more realistic to allow an attitude change once a week.

Now, as a Player with a Bard that has a +27 Diplomacy check (At least until I decide to bump the skill ranks to Max.), I really like having a minute or two to chat with the NPC's. Most folks are going to be indifferent, but by the time I am done talking to them, they will probably be friendly toward me, possibly Helpful. In the game I play in, we don't focus on it that much in "normal" situations. for my character, the wheels seem to be greased a lot. We travel through a town with an NPC and that NPC might introduce us to all the notables he knows. The interpersonal networking seems to come pretty easily. Now, if I want to actually leverage those connections, then it might be a little more difficult.

The social skill rules are not as codified as combat. There is a lot of room for interpretation and customization for each game. If you are unhappy with the way the rules are being applied, you need to communicate some of this with your DM. You seem to be establishing the research for by posting here, so you are probably on the road to getting a bit more value for those skills.

I hope my verbosity has been helpful.
 

Remove ads

Top