Diplomacy

[Goolpsy]

I do not know if any of you have house ruled this or even had an issue with it but,

If you first read the discribtion of the Diplomacy skill it states that it work on NPCs
anyway, on given examples of the book, it is used to make a beholder stop its attack (at least in 3.0 dont know about 3.5 but think its there too) Anyway, I have this player with a pump'd up Diplomacy skill, and somehow acording to the rules an opposed check isn't nessesarily..

First problem: "acording to the book i can tell this BIG angry great wyrm red dragon, not to attack me" could he be saying in middle of a fight... which pretty much ruins the whole encounter..

2nd problem: Can it be true that there isn't any opposed check? i mean, a level 15 paladin with 25 Charisma, 18 ranks in diplomacy with an item giving +20... (45+ 1d20 for the check) could with 20% miss chance turn an Evil dragon into a helpful sweet little critter?

And, How long does it take to use the skill? standard action? free action? (speech) or...?

Until now i've never let him use it in combat, not even against a NCP which made him really pissed off, and i kindof understand why.. (Special case with already Fanatic NPCs though)

 

[domino]

According to the rules, no opposed check is needed. The difficulty is done based on the current feelings of the creature towards you.

But, I've always felt that was a bit off, myself. Not so much because I think that there needs to be an active opposed check, I think that the DCs for unfriendly, hateful, whatever are fine, but because it makes no difference between strong and weak willed characters. Stronger will characters would be much less easily swayed to your side.

As for use, one of the things to keep in mind is that the other person must be slightly willing to listen and give heed to the character. It doesn't matter what your diplomacy skill is. If the other guy just wants to smash you, and ignores all the things you say, in favor of trying to smash you some more, you're just wasting your breath.

 

[Bront]

Actualy, we've generaly used Diplomacy as more of a negotiation/social persuasion skill than simply a flat "Talk down the bad guys" skill. We tend to be a bit more flexable with DCs though instead of taking them straight form the book. It prevents the "Talk down the dragon" scenerio, though we have used other party abilities to placate a dragon (Had one bard enthral a dragon for a long time because the GM rolled a 1 on the save, and liked the idea the party had about how to deal with him.)

 

[JimAde]

Rich Burlew (the Giant in the Playground and creator of Order of the Stick) has an excellent alternate handling of Diplomacy. I highly recommend it:

http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html

 

[Tonguez]

but the hero using flattery to stay the dragons claw until he can find a way to escape is a classic fantasy encounter and disallowing it in combat situations limits the fun. Of course it shouldn't be easy but it shouldn't be impossible either.

I agree turning the Ancient Red into a cute lil kitty is a bit much, but having the ancient red be impressed enough by the Paladins plea that he lets the human live should at less be possible (which of course reminds me of Shrek and what happened between the Dragon and Donkey - damn Donkey must of used a whole lot of diplomacy to pull that off!)

 

[Threedub]

I allow it for social maneuvering and also before a fight, if the PCs or the NPCs care to talk.

I would also allow it when a PC is captured or helpless--where the NPC/Intelligent monster doesn't feel like they are in mortal danger.

I do not allow it to be used during a pitched battle if the PCs have harmed their opponents.

 

[moritheil]

but the hero using flattery to stay the dragons claw until he can find a way to escape is a classic fantasy encounter and disallowing it in combat situations limits the fun. Of course it shouldn't be easy but it shouldn't be impossible either.

But where do you draw the line? This easily gets ridiculous. Someone can build a charismatic Bard with +35 or more to Diplomacy checks. Would you, as the DM, want to say, "Okay, I guess Tiamat decides she likes you so much that she gives you her treasure?"

The rules break down when considering that the real world has a lot of people that will persist in their actions regardless of how they feel towards someone. The DnD world has more, not less, of these sorts of characters, because of the existence of things like ravenous undead that exist to feed off the living.

For an honor bound NPC, just because they like someone doesn't mean they won't kill them in the line of duty. It's true in real life, and I would expect it to be more true in the "heroic story" style of DnD, not less true.

 

[S'mon]

I generally require a few minutes of conversation for a Diplomacy check, which normally disallows its use during combat. It's not a magical spell effect so you need to use common sense. If the high-Dip character surrendered to the dragon I'd prob give them a roll to see if the dragon listened to their proposal (DC 35 or less, usually), but if the PCs are _attacking_ the dragon Diplomacy is not going to work - don't be silly.

 

[S'mon]

But where do you draw the line? This easily gets ridiculous. Someone can build a charismatic Bard with +35 or more to Diplomacy checks. Would you, as the DM, want to say, "Okay, I guess Tiamat decides she likes you so much that she gives you her treasure?"

I can see circumstances where Orpheus the Epic Bard entertains Tiamat so well (say Dip DC 50 to listen (35 hostile + 15 because it's Tiamat), then Perform DC 50) that she lets him go and even gives him a trinket from her hoard. Not while the other PCs are hitting her, though.

 

[Thanee]

I only allow rushed diplomacy in a situation, where it makes sense, which is usually not in the midst of combat (could be possible, but usually it is not).

NPCs also can be completely ignorant to any uses of the Diplomacy skill, again, this depends highly on the situation.

Just because someone is a sweet talker doesn't mean *everyone* is going to listen.

And, of course, there can be huge penalties to the check, but one could also gain huge bonuses, depending on situation again.

Furthermore, I'd probably not allow items, that add crazy amounts (that is, more than +10, pre-epic (Note: the limits in the epic rules in the SRD are based on the 3.0 rules)) to skill checks.

Bye
Thanee