Zarrock God of Evil
First Post
BiggusGeekus@Work said:
Some posts here are just brilliant
. Three points for eloquence!-Zarrock
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Disappointed in 3.5 books
- Thread starter Iron_Chef
- Start date
Some posts here are just brilliant
. Three points for eloquence!-Zarrock
Marimmar
First Post
I hope Iron_Chef's post wasn't meant to be a troll so I'll comment on his point that cross class skills are a waste of skill points.
Spending skill points on cross class skills is IMHO not a waste. My rogue with a WIS penalty put enough skill points on wilderness lore to be a decent tracker. Shure, with the advent of a ranger in the party he had to step back, but it fits into the bounty hunter concept and allowed our party to get more information than otherwise possible.
As for clerics and sense motive, your average cleric already has a +3 bonus to sense motive from his high WIS score, all you need to do is put 4 skill points into it at first level to get a +5 modifier on your sense motive skill. This is as much as most rogues out there have at first level in climb, one of their class skills. AFAIK only roguish (sp?) characters will put any ranks in bluff and most characters will also have a CHA penalty when constructed with point-buy, so essentially your cleric with a few ranks in sense motive will most often sense that someone is lying to them.
While sense motive might be useful for an inquisitor style cleric, my average Father Brown type cleric would be better served with ranks in diplomacy to help mediate between hostile people. When someone needs your help in religious/mundane matters you don't need to assert that s/he is telling the truth, all that matters is that someone needs your advice.
~Marimmar
Spending skill points on cross class skills is IMHO not a waste. My rogue with a WIS penalty put enough skill points on wilderness lore to be a decent tracker. Shure, with the advent of a ranger in the party he had to step back, but it fits into the bounty hunter concept and allowed our party to get more information than otherwise possible.
As for clerics and sense motive, your average cleric already has a +3 bonus to sense motive from his high WIS score, all you need to do is put 4 skill points into it at first level to get a +5 modifier on your sense motive skill. This is as much as most rogues out there have at first level in climb, one of their class skills. AFAIK only roguish (sp?) characters will put any ranks in bluff and most characters will also have a CHA penalty when constructed with point-buy, so essentially your cleric with a few ranks in sense motive will most often sense that someone is lying to them.
While sense motive might be useful for an inquisitor style cleric, my average Father Brown type cleric would be better served with ranks in diplomacy to help mediate between hostile people. When someone needs your help in religious/mundane matters you don't need to assert that s/he is telling the truth, all that matters is that someone needs your advice.
~Marimmar
>>Sorcerers get ALL charisma-based skills as class skills. They are a Charisma based class; to deny them the advantages of utilizing their high charisma for anything other than spellcasting is WRONG.
Uhhhh... why?
Yes, they have a high charisma. Why does it necessarily follow, then, that they should be skilled in all charisma skills?
You're tryint to beef up the sorceror from the point of view of just giving him more power. Here's an idea: How about we give him the skills that make sense, in the game world?
A sorceror is a variant wizards. I'm quite at a loss to understand why a variant wizard should necessarily be as skilled as a bard in the various charsima-based skills.
I never use the world Power Gaming, because I think it's 1) snobby 2) juvenile and 3) hypocritical. Look, almost all players are "power gamers" in the sense that HELL YEAH, they'd like more power. (Please don't bring up the various people who swear that their character wields a wet dandelion rather than a genuine weapon because "that's what my <i>character</i> would do..").
But your complaint comes from the mentality of pure Power Gaming. You're not thinking of flavor or game-world-logic. You're just thinking, Gee, what would make the sorceror tougher, and sure, having access to all cha-based skills would do the trick.
But precisely what the hell do all the charisma-based skills have to do with a wild-talent wizard? What is it about the character that leads you to conclude that, like the bard, he would spend the bulk of his time actually developing and improving his charisma-skills?
Uhhhh... why?
Yes, they have a high charisma. Why does it necessarily follow, then, that they should be skilled in all charisma skills?
You're tryint to beef up the sorceror from the point of view of just giving him more power. Here's an idea: How about we give him the skills that make sense, in the game world?
A sorceror is a variant wizards. I'm quite at a loss to understand why a variant wizard should necessarily be as skilled as a bard in the various charsima-based skills.
I never use the world Power Gaming, because I think it's 1) snobby 2) juvenile and 3) hypocritical. Look, almost all players are "power gamers" in the sense that HELL YEAH, they'd like more power. (Please don't bring up the various people who swear that their character wields a wet dandelion rather than a genuine weapon because "that's what my <i>character</i> would do..").
But your complaint comes from the mentality of pure Power Gaming. You're not thinking of flavor or game-world-logic. You're just thinking, Gee, what would make the sorceror tougher, and sure, having access to all cha-based skills would do the trick.
But precisely what the hell do all the charisma-based skills have to do with a wild-talent wizard? What is it about the character that leads you to conclude that, like the bard, he would spend the bulk of his time actually developing and improving his charisma-skills?
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If there were a variant wizard class called "The Enchanter," a class specializing in Enchantments, I could see the case for giving such a class almost all Cha-based skills. Because, see, he's an Enchanter. He uses charms. His entire modus operandi is to charm and seduce, and one would imagine that he would do so through means both magical and mundane.
So yes to giving The Enchanter all cha-based skills.
But what in the sorceror's bio or direction suggests that he too would necessarily be skilled in all the arts of diplomacy, deception, flattery, negotiation, entertaining, and seduction?
Nothing. Except the fact that he has a high charisma.
So, let me ask: If a fighter or paladin has a high charisma, should that character get all charisma-based skills as class skils? After all, that would make the characters more powerful and more attractive.
So yes to giving The Enchanter all cha-based skills.
But what in the sorceror's bio or direction suggests that he too would necessarily be skilled in all the arts of diplomacy, deception, flattery, negotiation, entertaining, and seduction?
Nothing. Except the fact that he has a high charisma.
So, let me ask: If a fighter or paladin has a high charisma, should that character get all charisma-based skills as class skils? After all, that would make the characters more powerful and more attractive.
Breakdaddy
First Post
Werd, Eric N.
With your post count, Billbo, I might suggest that you wont make many allies here by flaming down people for expressing opinions. Ease up man
With your post count, Billbo, I might suggest that you wont make many allies here by flaming down people for expressing opinions. Ease up man
Estlor
Explorer
There are a couple of fundamental misunderstandings going on here.
First is the nature of the skills in question. Sense Motive doesn't make you a genius, it makes you a great judge of character. Being that is it a Wisdom skill that you can use untrained, the implication of the designers is that strong wisdom makes you naturally good at the skill, but individuals who have a need of it in their line of work (rogues, paladins) are outstanding at doing it through practice.
So, clerics tend to be decent at making these judgements naturally. They don't have quite the same amount of practice as others might, but with some effort they can improve the natural gift they have at it.
As for detecting lies, which seems to be all Iron_Chief is worried about Sense Motive for, not everyone takes ranks in Bluff either. So John Q. Cleric can't figure out is the rogue or bard is lying to him - neither can the baby Jesus because they're AMAZING at fibbing.
The second misunderstanding is what a cleric is. Iron_Chief seems to be saying cleric = priest. While this is sometimes the case, every cleric is not a priest. A cleric is a worshipper of a god with martial skills and a devoted calling to live their faith. The cleric that is a priest would need to be a judge of character, but the cleric that defends the temple is only concerned with defense. You pigeonhole the cleric into the role of priest by your understanding. Classes that have skills as class skills do so because every member benefits from it and uses it often. Rogues lie. Paladins judge people. Wizards know stuff. Fighters drag heavy stuff up slopes. Rangers live off the land. You get the idea.
I'll tell you something. There is a school of thought in the real world that believes intense faith in something makes you less perceptive. Dogma often reduces fuzzy topics into clear black and white to make it easier on the people that believe it.
First is the nature of the skills in question. Sense Motive doesn't make you a genius, it makes you a great judge of character. Being that is it a Wisdom skill that you can use untrained, the implication of the designers is that strong wisdom makes you naturally good at the skill, but individuals who have a need of it in their line of work (rogues, paladins) are outstanding at doing it through practice.
So, clerics tend to be decent at making these judgements naturally. They don't have quite the same amount of practice as others might, but with some effort they can improve the natural gift they have at it.
As for detecting lies, which seems to be all Iron_Chief is worried about Sense Motive for, not everyone takes ranks in Bluff either. So John Q. Cleric can't figure out is the rogue or bard is lying to him - neither can the baby Jesus because they're AMAZING at fibbing.
The second misunderstanding is what a cleric is. Iron_Chief seems to be saying cleric = priest. While this is sometimes the case, every cleric is not a priest. A cleric is a worshipper of a god with martial skills and a devoted calling to live their faith. The cleric that is a priest would need to be a judge of character, but the cleric that defends the temple is only concerned with defense. You pigeonhole the cleric into the role of priest by your understanding. Classes that have skills as class skills do so because every member benefits from it and uses it often. Rogues lie. Paladins judge people. Wizards know stuff. Fighters drag heavy stuff up slopes. Rangers live off the land. You get the idea.
I'll tell you something. There is a school of thought in the real world that believes intense faith in something makes you less perceptive. Dogma often reduces fuzzy topics into clear black and white to make it easier on the people that believe it.
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