Disappointed in 4e

[Gallo22]

I thought the "I hate 4E" thread was being discouraged in general, as it inevitably descends into edition war, WotC-bashing, and name-calling.

Uh...Grimstaff...the original poster was talking baout his disappointment in 4E, he bought it, tried it, and was disappointed in it. I would not call this a "I hate 4E" thread.

 

[Drkfathr1]

Making every book "core/essential" isn't going to keep everyone buying, but it'll be interesting to see how well the future PH's, MM's, and DM's Guides sell.

I wish WoTC would focus on ADVENTURES more than splat books. The could stop spending all their time and energy on designing more rules and actually spend their time and energy on writing good ADVENTURES. Show us that they can use their nifty rules to make good stories/challenges.

I know that its said that adventure modules don't sell as well as the splat books, but I think Goodman and Necromancer might contradict that idea. (as well as other companies, but those two stand out for me)

Yes, I know they're doing some adventures too now, but I think it would be a better idea to produce multiple modules per month rather than multiple $20-$30 rule books that may never get used in a campaign.

When people I know talk about D&D, they talk about the adventures their characters had, and what they fought, and what BBEG's they had to face. They don't talk about the mechanics of the rule system they used.

 

[Verys Arkon]

One thing I like about WotC's 4e release schedule is that is seems (in theory) the material will be more organized, either in logical supplements or focus campaign books.

Classes appear in the PH series. No longer am I going to find things like Factotum in Dungeonscape.

Feats are in the PH series. Now I don't have to flip through every book. Lets face it, almost every book in 3.5 had feats and if you wanted to make an informed choice, you had to flip through dozens of books.

Powers for a source are in one book. In 3.5, spells would pop up everywhere. Its what made Spell Compendium such a good idea, since it collected the scattered material in one place. In 4e, they are starting with 'Spell Compendium' instead.

Limited campaign setting books. I like FR well enough, but do I really need all those extra books? What are the chances my campaign is going to explore more than a few of those areas? Plus, see the above complaints about scattered material. I like buying books, but I'm always disappointed when the book-of-the-month is yet anther FR splat. (vote Dark Sun for 2010!)

I don't mind having the material spread out over time. It means usefulness of the books will last longer than in 3.x's lifespan. What I really don't want is having the material spread out all over the place in dozens of books. How many of you would have bought a Feat Compendium for 3.5?


If I was playing a 3.5 cleric, how many books would I have to take with me to the game? I remember reading a WotC blog (forget which one), where the author was describing a focus group where one player pulled book after book out of his bag, and opened them up to the spell sections. His conclusion was (paraphrased) 'we need to change this'.

I just hope WotC designers and editors stick to this format, and don't try to slip in extra powers and feats here and there (already happened in AV!). If it does break down, at least we have DDI Compendium to help search, instead of the useless lists in 3.x. If they need to add extra material immediately, stick it in Dragon magazine until it can be reprinted in the next PH or Power book.

 

[dm4hire]

I just hope WotC designers and editors stick to this format, and don't try to slip in extra powers and feats here and there (already happened in AV!). If it does break down, at least we have DDI Compendium to help search, instead of the useless lists in 3.x. If they need to add extra material immediately, stick it in Dragon magazine until it can be reprinted in the next PH or Power book.

But they're not, which is part of the downside to 4e. Already we're going to have the Power related books which will add more for a given power type, i.e. Martial Handbook, Arcane, and Divine being next year. Then they're releasing exclusive powers with the heroes mini sets they announced. And then you have what shows up in Dragon. The compendium is great in collecting everything together in one place, but you still have to pay to access it so you might as well just buy the products to begin with.

 

[garyh]

But they're not, which is part of the downside to 4e. Already we're going to have the Power related books which will add more for a given power type, i.e. Martial Handbook, Arcane, and Divine being next year. Then they're releasing exclusive powers with the heroes mini sets they announced. And then you have what shows up in Dragon. The compendium is great in collecting everything together in one place, but you still have to pay to access it so you might as well just buy the products to begin with.

One nice thing about the DDI Character Generator, though, is it will pull together all the info you need for your PC from all WotC books and articles, including generating custom power cards. Once you print that character sheet out, you don't need to look things up in the various books.

Really looking forward to that program...

 

[dm4hire]

Which can be done by a third party program for free. Or put together with a spread sheet or other database software using the PDFs or old fashion typing.

 

[RefinedBean]

Which can be done by a third party program for free. Or put together with a spread sheet or other database software using the PDFs or old fashion typing.

Using the PDFs = Illegal, right? (since the full books haven't been published in PDF form, I thought).

At any rate, pointing out that the competition has done a craptastic job of marketing their 3PP tools, while plenty of people are excited for WotC's upcoming Character Builder, doesn't really place doubt on WotC's ability to keep the 4E system relatively tight and focused.

 

[Alzrius]

Using the PDFs = Illegal, right? (since the full books haven't been published in PDF form, I thought).

The full books have been published in PDF form for a while now.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I would have much rathered they fill out the lower levels than include rules that I think most wouldn't need for some time. I see that because of their design choice they are stuck with power creep or sameness.

I just wanted to say that this line of reasoning is a paragon of practicality.

In truth, it might have been a better idea to parse out the core by level rather than by variety of content. Anticipation for the Next Tier builds organically, as your characters advance. Given the two-plus-year length of time it takes a reasonably paced party to get through 30 or so levels, they could've milked this all the way up to level 30, and then could have gone back to level 1 and started again!

If you were interested in a sustainable edition, this is what I would do. This would be my "product cycle."

I wouldn't have "core rulebooks," per se. I would instead treat D&D as a game. I would put out the first ten levels, support them, and then put out the next ten levels, and so on, all in one great continuum. Then I would return to the start with a new "game of D&D." Maybe different flavor, maybe a different setting, definitely a rules update, maybe even a variation on the rules, and, of course, advice for integrating these with the previous books.

I would not put out a game you could complete in three books. I would put out a game that continually recycled itself every three - five years (or so).

In this continual edition treadmill, you would never be totally complete, but you could easily "take a break," and be assured that whenever you picked up the game again, you would be close enough to a "new version" to pick it up and chug along. If you found a game you liked, you could stay there forever. Everyone else would be shepherded along at basically the same pace. There would be more options, but each option would be more shallow. If you wanted to add depth to it, well, that's why you have a DM.

Really, I probably would have been happier with that than this. Sure, people would complain, but if people are going to complain anyway, you might as well do something amazing with it.

 

[Derren]

I just hope WotC designers and editors stick to this format, and don't try to slip in extra powers and feats here and there (already happened in AV!). If it does break down, at least we have DDI Compendium to help search, instead of the useless lists in 3.x. If they need to add extra material immediately, stick it in Dragon magazine until it can be reprinted in the next PH or Power book.

Then you will likely be disappointed. WotC wants to sell as many books as it can get away with and those books have to be filled with content.
And the easiest way to fill a book is with powers, PPs/EDs and feats, especially as 4E is rather light on fluff.