Discussing fighters (forked from martial power)

[Cadfan]

1. This is a total thread hijack.

2. Its really tough to design ranged attacks for fighters that don't end up sucking. I tried. See, eg, my Godhammer Paladin build linked in my signature. The build has one flaw (its a hidden flaw, and you're not likely to find it, so if I don't tell you about it maybe it doesn't count), but its an exploration of how and why you might use ranged attacks with a defender, albeit the Paladin, who is a little more ranged combat friendly due to Divine Challenge functioning at range.

3. You could make ranged attacks work for a Fighter, but ideally they'd work by fitting in and synergizing with a larger melee build.

4. That's tough, because melee builds typically use up both hands, leaving you with difficulty using an extra ranged weapon. But there's at least some space for them with two handed weapon fighters, who can let go with one hand to draw and throw a handaxe.

5. That being said, its not clear that actual Fighter powers are required for this to be a good idea. The basic heavy ranged attack gets the job done.

 

[Milambus]

Can you guys fork your fighter argument and leave this thread for those of us wanting to read up on the new book?

 

[Caliber]

Not to be pissy, but could those debating the viability of ranged defender-dom fork the thread and carry on there? I'd like this thread's Martial Power preview content to have a higher ratio than it does currently.

Also, I'd hate to drive Bagpuss away. And I want to hear about the possibility of Ranged Walords more than Ranged Fighters anyhow.

 

[James McMurray]

1. This is a total thread hijack.

2. Its really tough to design ranged attacks for fighters that don't end up sucking. I tried. See, eg, my Godhammer Paladin build linked in my signature. The build has one flaw (its a hidden flaw, and you're not likely to find it, so if I don't tell you about it maybe it doesn't count), but its an exploration of how and why you might use ranged attacks with a defender, albeit the Paladin, who is a little more ranged combat friendly due to Divine Challenge functioning at range.

3. You could make ranged attacks work for a Fighter, but ideally they'd work by fitting in and synergizing with a larger melee build.

4. That's tough, because melee builds typically use up both hands, leaving you with difficulty using an extra ranged weapon. But there's at least some space for them with two handed weapon fighters, who can let go with one hand to draw and throw a handaxe.

Agreed on all but #2, but only because I've never tried it. On #4: the two-weapon fighter can also throw one of his weapons. Or a fighter could use a one-handed throwing weapon as his primary weapon. The trident and tratnyr would be decent for this.

5. That being said, its not clear that actual Fighter powers are required for this to be a good idea. The basic heavy ranged attack gets the job done.

The only thing the basic thrown attack does is give the fighter something to do when he can't melee. Ranged powers would give him something interesting to do.

That said, I think we've jacked the thread enough. Sorry folks!

 

[corncob]

1. This is a total thread hijack.

2. Its really tough to design ranged attacks for fighters that don't end up sucking. I tried. See, eg, my Godhammer Paladin build linked in my signature. The build has one flaw (its a hidden flaw, and you're not likely to find it, so if I don't tell you about it maybe it doesn't count)

More prone to being charged? That would essentially give you a -1 to AC.

 

[Cadfan]

More prone to being charged? That would essentially give you a -1 to AC.

Nope! Good try though. That's a true statement, but it isn't worse for my build than for any ranged attacker.

Answer:

Spoiler

The idea behind it all is a sort of Captain America type character, who fights in melee but then throws a ranged attack when the opportunity presents itself. Unfortunately, given the way that D&D rewards specialization and focus, this sort of character in D&D almost inevitably ends up spending all day doing either melee or throwing, but never both. My build doesn't quite avoid that problem. It needs some sort of extra incentive for you to throw your weapon only a limited number of times per fight, and to fight in melee otherwise. The fact that your at will powers don't work at range won't quite do it, because a basic ranged attack can still get the benefit of your divine challenge while never actually fighting your challenged foe in melee reach- that abuse is worth at least as much as an at will.

 

[FireLance]

I think the answer is powers that work in melee and at range. Primarily melee characters might shy away from powers that are exclusively ranged, but they might select powers that work reasonably well in melee, but also give them the option to use them at range under the right circumstances.

I think it's quite possible to have a Hurler fighter concept that can defend at range. He gets the special ability to make a basic ranged attack against a marked opponent who makes an attack that does not include him as an immediate interrupt, and to offset this, his Combat Superiority and Fighter Weapon Talent abilities only work with heavy thrown weapons.

Throw in an at-will attack that works both in melee and at ranged (possibly similar to sly flourish - needs to wield a heavy thrown weapon, Strength vs. AC, deals [W] + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier damage), plus some encounter and daily powers that work both in melee and at range, and you're done.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

The problem with adding the ranged attacks into the Fighter build is that it takes away from the other classes. If a Fighter can pin someone with a ranged attack, what do you need an Archer Ranger for?

If you're just looking for someone that can fight at range as well as in melee, then you can get that with the Ranger. Many of the Ranger's powers work with either ranged or melee weapons, meaning you could build for both and change between then as you see fit.

Yes, the Ranger wouldn't have the marking and combat superiority skills that the Fighter has, but it's keeping those separate that keeps things balanced. Putting them together leaves things wide open for rampant abuse.

For instance, why not build a totally ranged Fighter? He could wear light armor and focus on Dex to get ranged bonuses, then he could sit on the back lines marking people up in the front. Since they would then have to get past your other Fighter filling the traditional Defender role (meaning they would take AoO's, possibly get their movement stopped, etc) to attack the guy that marked them, they would just resort to eating the -2 to hit and wailing on your Defender...and they would therefore miss. A LOT.

It just unbalances the game and doesn't really gel with the class roles involved.

 

[Cadfan]

Right. The key to giving a Fighter ranged attacks is to make them complement, rather than replace, what he already does. That's why the Deft Hurler feat from the gladiator preview was such an excellent example of how to do this- basically, it said that when you successfully cleave, instead of damaging another foe, you can draw and throw a weapon. It keeps the Fighter in melee, where he belongs, but also gives him the ability to use a ranged attack. And a pretty good one at that- the damage comes out to about the same at most levels (damage than the bonus cleave damage you sacrifice, but you have to make an attack roll), but it marks the target. And marking at range is pretty sweet.

 

[Cobblestone]

2. Its really tough to design ranged attacks for fighters that don't end up sucking. I tried.

I think the answer lies in using a fighter's melee opponents as ranged attacks.

Peace,

C-Stone