Discussion on the feasability of WotC supporting all editions in DDI

[Arlough]

This is a split from this thread, in the hopes of keeping it on topic.
The discussion centers around the quesiton, "Would it be reasonable to ask/expect Wizards to, with DDi, support all previous editions of the game?"
The story so far...

...<snip>
Now, asking WotC to support all editions of D&D is a little unreasonable. but Asking them to create working tools that help us play the game is reasonable.
Asking for all the content ever published under the name D&D to be free and in any format we want would be unreasonable.
<snip>...

I dont think supporting all editions would be problematic or "unreasonable". If they have a stable and working database that can pull these things from, and the VTT ever gets finished, then pulling things from that database could allow ANY edition to play in it with at least existing support.

No new material would need to be added, just the database updated with existing material.

That would give non-current-edition players a reason at least to be interested in DDi and possibly subscribe. There would be a compendium for the edition where you could find the info you need to play, plus ability to play on a decent, or at least, game focused virtual table top.

Also other people wanting to look at older edition material to convert or use for gameplay that are subscribers have a LOT more value to their subscription because they could have access to the whole of D&D's history and vast amounts of material to use for whichever game they play. This could even be helpful to the design team for not having to sort through old books to find monsters or items and such to alter for the current edition, because they too could just grab it form the DDi interface and look at it with what they are designing to upgrade it to the new edition.

That is just the simplest application. If there was something to scale monsters of older editions by some kind of percentage when viewing them say in the VTT, then that would be a big help also. Otherwise jsut having access and all your players having the same access would make the DDi more broadly usable by many more players just for the simple access to older editions.

All that would be needed is a data entry person to fill in those databases with the material and use the existing compendium for the most part with slight changes per edition, to support older editions. Nothing new really need be created for them, as so much already exists.

From a technical standpoint, I agree. It would not be that difficult, technically. From a business standpoint I can't see a strong case being made for them to do so.
I did have quite a bit of reasoning why typed up, but then I realized that I was getting way off topic, so I went to start a new thread. But that is when my battery decided to die, and I lost all that work and am too tired at the moment to summon it forth again.
But, I do find this topic interesting. If you feel like you can make a strong business case of it, then please start a thread and put a link in here to it so we can discuss.

But I am going to posit that, for this discussion, we assume that WotC is going to stick with 4.x exclusively, until 5.0 comes out.

P.S. If this comes out hostile or garbled at all, please forgive me. I am falling asleep at the keyboard and really need to go go bed.
Goodnight all.

Why on earth would they put the effort into making out-of-print editions usable databases?

Can you imagine how many man-hours it would take to enter up all the 2nd edition versions of spells, then go back and do it all again for the 1st edition version and then do it AGAIN for the 3rd edition version- and AGAIN for the 3.5?

Even just converting existing online info is a ridiculous amount of work for something that doesn't promise even moderate returns.

The whole clamoring for support for all editions is, imho, completely unrealistic. One of the big lessons WotC learned from TSR's failure was not to try to support multiple versions of the same game. That said, it would be cool.

...<snip>
I would assume since they made 3rd edition and the SRD/OGL, they have most of that they could copy and paste from the EPS files for anything made after 2000 and before 4th edition. It would have been foolish to destroy that because copying some description for later use isn't that big a deal.

2nd edition AD&D was a large part already typed up from the books, so again a copy and paste from that work.

1st edition start with the 2nd edition spells, then alter them to follow the proper format. So here would be a bit of work.

Rules Cyclopedia shouold cover enough of older D&D editions, Not sure what was used or if acutal files are in WotC or HASBRO possession, but something must exist that oculd be copied and pasted. If not being black and white, scanning in and OCR wouldn't be too hard. Was that ever for sale in PDF format? That would mean a PDF to copy and paste from.

I am not talking all material in existence, as that isn't what it takes to support. Technically if rules are turned off for the VTT, it will support older editions as well as other games, but not enough to make mass amounts of people to flood to DDi for it.

Here is a server, here is older D&D with its databases, let's not let it crash and be down and POOF support for older editions and a reason for users of them to have a DDi account. With the retro-clone movement it woudl go a logn way for WotC to get some money from that jsut by having a seat at the table to offer up something for those players.

TSR didnt have the advantage of the internet as exists now to tap the potential of supporting multiple editions. Maybe whet the whistle of older edition players if someone feels like it and add a new accessory every once in a while like a group of monster from a module or something. Still nothing new has to be made to support older editions as the plethora of plethora material exists enough for people to join.

Remember the stated goal of GLEEMAX! was to have a place for all gamers. Well that failed miserably, do DDi took over to focus on D&D, but it is missing a chance to get money form people of older editions by not offering anything for them.

While securely locked onto the WotC servers, well as secure as the 4th edition material is; this will also give them control over it to "stop the piracy", and be able to generate revenue for a database that just sits there and is checked for performance issues.

In the short run the costs will be there, but at $10 per month or whatever the costs would dwindle if done smart to get the information form the places that require the least work to input into a database, or even have the database populate itself with a script to read the existing formats so a human doesn't have to copy and paste each thing.

How much money are they making now on older editions? How much does $10 a month form those players generate?

Money in LARGE amounts was wasted on GLEEMAX!, but older editions databases are not something that nobody has any idea what is, not is it something people didn't ask for. They jsut have to decide the best way to get the database built and filled, and decide if they are looking for quick return or if slow return is ok.

Think once the VTT comes out, if it connects to a database to help show things; what advantage it would have to recapture older edition customers, if they could import things from an older edition database to play the game.

We know the VTT is actually coming sometime in the next 10 years. We know MANY people have DDI accounts for the Rules Compendium and/or Character builder. So if 4th edition players have DDi accounts still for just Rules Compendium and the hope of a VTT, What is to say older edition players wouldn't do the same if the edition in questions had a Rules Compendium?

A large part of TSR's failure (along with just horrible administration) was trying to support the publishing of multiple versions of the game. That also involved the development of new products for multiple versions of the game. Development and publishing are the most significant expenses involved with a product line. Both of these factors are not present in DDI support of previous editions.

Once the initial compilations and development is done (the data bases created), with the exception of a bit more server space, nothing really changes from what they have now. Maintenance of the system would not be significantly increased by the addition of extra data-sets, but the amount of subscribers could double (or more).

A simple fact is that there are as many (or more) potential customers (players of other editions or game systems that used to purchase D&D products) that don't play 4E or buy any current D&D products. The only way to get these people to pay for a DDI sub is to offer material they will use. And, as has been talked to death, a DDI subscription is a perpetual source of income that has the potential to make magnitudes more profit than print products. They may call Essentials an "evergreen" product, but WotC's true evergreen product is DDI.

DDI subscriptions are always going to be only a percentage of players. Even if the site and material was perfect, it's never going to get everyone who plays as subscribers. A large portion of players will simply share subscriptions, or feel they just wouldn't use it enough to be worthwhile, or any other number of reasons - even if the applications were perfect. Improvement to DDI will get some of these 4E players to come back, and could likely net a few who didn't previously subscribe, but for the biggest potential increase in subscribers they have to look to players of other editions. To get those players, they have to offer support for other editions. Nothing else will draw them in.

WotC is the only entity capable of effectively tapping that customer base, and it's a very large untapped pool of potential customers.

So, new thread, fascinating discussion.
Please continue.

 

[Lordhawkins9]

Devoted gamers can make anything happen.

If WotC asked the fanbase to do all the gruntwork and type out all the spells/rules/everything, there would be people willing. WotC would just have to upload this stuff to their server.

If WotC offered a Collectors version of the ruleset that the person was copying...they'd have to hold a contest to see who of the hundreds of applicants would GET to do it.

 

[Arlough]

Well there's an idea. Release it all under a licence similar to the GNU Free Documentation Licence, or hell, I'd even accept the OGL (though, not optimal) and just vomit the data onto the net. Then, let the gaming community pick up the digital documentation as a project.
This would give the pre-current edition gamers what they want, but also have a negligible associated cost to Wizards.
Thoughts?

 

[Umbran]

Is it reasonable to ask them to? Sure.

Is it reasonable to expect them to do so without adequate compensation? Certainly not.

Each game is a separate design, and each would call for a different information architecture to manage in the DDI - having 4e does not get you the other editions for free, or even for the price of data entry. You are likely asking for a separate application for each edition of the game, which for a company that's still in the midst of trying to learn how to do software offerings is no mean feat.

Pay them enough money, it is reasonable. I'm guessing the price tag would be higher than people expect, or would want to pay.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

All your ideas about someone at WotC working on such a project assumes that they have some free capacities.

If that's not the case they'd have to hire someone to do it, so it becomes an economical question again.

 

[Coldwyn]

Some years ago I worked for a company that "digitized" stuff, from last years telephone books to whole library indexes.
Truth be told, we scanned all that stuff at the cmpany headquarters in Munich, Germany and moved the raw scans over to our subsidiary in Ho Chi Minh City, Saigon. There, some 150 workers simply typed all that stuff into a database, working 24 hours a day in three shifts, so they really made good time. I´m still NDA-bound to not talk about pricing but it should be sufficient to know that around 50K pages typed cost less than a used car.

So that should be possible. What comes afterwards, will be the harder part of sorting, indexing, redacting and so on.

 

[TerraDave]

It depends on how you define "support".

I see three maybes:

1) Going back to having everything in print in PDF

2) Making the VT work for other editions, as they have hinted at.

3) Releasing a very limited "D&D classic" line.

Any of these could make money for them. Though they will also be worried about undermining the newest edition. The irony here is that if 4E is already having market share problems, the impact of these product will be less, as they may be sold to people who wouldn't play 4E in any case.

 

[shadzar]

Pay them enough money, it is reasonable. I'm guessing the price tag would be higher than people expect, or would want to pay.

How much of the current income form DDi goes back into it?

Also what happens when 4th edition becomes a "past edition"? They should wipe the database and only keep the new 5th edition around right?

There will be a 5th edition or D&D will die, and it will use an online model such as DDi. When that happens and 4th edition is removed, people will say business as usual, and many subscribers will likely jump ship meaning some dead months of income for WotC on the DDi front.

If instead 4th edition remains online in DDi, even with no new content created, that will be a time when some WotC employees will want to slap themselves in the face for the backlash of NOT having other prior editions on in some format.

So they might as well start working on it now, to save face for the future. The sooner they get it done and in place, the sooner that data entry will be paid for by subscribers to a DDi that supports older editions, if even only in a database that allows them to play with others without having to own or buy the out of print books.

Not to mention it will give Pazio's subscription services a run for its money....as the total value of a DDi subscription will rise, and could even see some Pathfinder players, mining their DDi (with 3.5 Rules Compendium) subscription for things to use in their Pathfinder game.

 

[shadzar]

[MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION]

I would assume since they made 3rd edition and the SRD/OGL, they have most of that they could copy and paste from the EPS files for anything made after 2000 and before 4th edition. It would have been foolish to destroy that because copying some description for later use isn't that big a deal.

2nd edition AD&D was a large part already typed up from the books, so again a copy and paste from that work.

1st edition start with the 2nd edition spells, then alter them to follow the proper format. So here would be a bit of work.

Rules Cyclopedia shouold cover enough of older D&D editions, Not sure what was used or if acutal files are in WotC or HASBRO possession, but something must exist that oculd be copied and pasted. If not being black and white, scanning in and OCR wouldn't be too hard. Was that ever for sale in PDF format? That would mean a PDF to copy and paste from.

Have you ever tried to convert raw data into a working database?

It's not that simple. It is nowhere near that simple. Take it from someone who's done it, what you propose is a LOT of work and would cost a pile of money.

If you have text you can copy from a source, then convert that text into CSV, then run a script on that CSV to populate your database for you. It isn't as hard as you might think.

Just getting the database/table structure figured out for each type of element.

If you create your CSV file correctly, you can even use it to set up the tables for you using the field line as your field structure.

Data is very easily manipulated once it is in text form. As mentioned already most of the data is already in digital form, so you just need to get it from there to the database.

Windows Help Compilers do that exact thing when run. They take files and create a database from them and put a cute little GUI/database query on them with linked data.

 

[Umbran]

How much of the current income form DDi goes back into it?

Nobody outside WotC knows, and they aren't talking. We have only pure speculation.

Also what happens when 4th edition becomes a "past edition"? They should wipe the database and only keep the new 5th edition around right?

That will depend upon many factors, most of which we cannot predict at this time. I don't expect them to support 4e forever - there is a maintenance cost to supporting legacy systems, and eventually there won't be enough people paying for it to make it worthwhile.

Add on top of that the scenarios where you can lose out on profit if you compete with yourself in a small market, and I wouldn't expect them to keep the legacy system supported for very long.

If instead 4th edition remains online in DDi, even with no new content created, that will be a time when some WotC employees will want to slap themselves in the face for the backlash of NOT having other prior editions on in some format.

No, they probably won't, for several reasons.

Content for 4e and beyond is (and will be) created in ways that are easily convertable to digital presentation. 1e was created using much older publishing methods, so they don't get the conversion to digital for free - they have to do a pretty massive conversion project to support an old edition.

Despite how much ranting we see on message boards, the actual market for those older products is probably not very large, in an absolute sense, or even relative to the 4e player base, and the players probably aren't going to be willing to pay a premium for it. So, the profit margin on that work probably wouldn't be large.

And, as I said before, this is not just a data entry issue, it is probably also an application development issue. It isn't just about getting the game in a database, it is having an application that displays that data in a sensible manner, and what is sensible depends on the game's design.