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Pathfinder 1E Discussion: Removing Deities & Gods

alexmohr1990

First Post
To keep it simple my realm is going to be a newly formed one, it hasn't been around long enough for deities to be formed, much less named. Instead of playing on blessings from high beings I have plans for higher concentrations of thought to grant divine energies, drawing from these pools of thought much like the planes of the arcane.

My question is, as a new DM, what suggestions do you guys have for immersion sake removing specific deities from the picture for classes such as Clerics and Paladins.

Discuss. (Please :D).
 

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Lord Pendragon

First Post
It seems like this would create something like Ultima's Eight Virtues, where people would dedicate themselves to an Idea, and by embodying that Idea, gain power from it. Clerics and Paladins would then be those so in-tune with their particular Ideas that they can perform miracles.
 


Viktyr Gehrig

First Post
Most basic idea: Clerics, Paladins, and Inquistors? Never heard of them. Druids and Rangers still exist, and you can get arcane healing from Witches and Bards. Lower the level on cure spells and heal for Druids and Witches, lower the level for resurrection spells for Witches, and give Bards remove disease at 3rd and heal at 6th.

Kinda says something different about the world when the only characters capable of raising the dead are people in league with otherworldly and vaguely sinister forces, doesn't it?

You could actually run an entire campaign like this, and have the climax of the game-- as the characters reach beyond 20th level-- be the PCs becoming the first new deities in this new campaign world.
 

Ramaster

Adventurer
In my games, gods rarely show up on campaigns, and the feel is pretty much the same as regular D&D. I like Viktyr Gehrig's idea of having the PCs become the new gods.
 

alexmohr1990

First Post
Lord Pendragon's idea was more where I was leaning, as interesting as it sounds to have a campaign where Holy divine simply doesn't exist, I've got players who are really into the divine classes, and the idea of the Virtues is what I had in mind in the first place. Them becoming deities is going to be the ultimate goal, but not primary plot yet (They'll learn of their transcendence much much later, as the setting is starting at level 1). I'll have to look into the ultima bit. Thanks! (Any other opinions/suggestions welcome.)
 

Matthias

Explorer
To keep it simple my realm is going to be a newly formed one, it hasn't been around long enough for deities to be formed, much less named. Instead of playing on blessings from high beings I have plans for higher concentrations of thought to grant divine energies, drawing from these pools of thought much like the planes of the arcane.

My question is, as a new DM, what suggestions do you guys have for immersion sake removing specific deities from the picture for classes such as Clerics and Paladins.

Discuss. (Please :D).



In my multiverse, new material planes are continually being created by the Supreme Being, and old ones are evolving into new upper planes or lower planes. Each new material plane begins populated with its own flora and fauna and small groups of sentients ('first ones') scattered around the world, in a sort of global paradise.

The Overdeity does not create these progenitors with any pre-programmed knowledge, skills, or even a common language, only "perfection of form": perfection of body, intellect, creativity, and longevity.


In game terms, these first ones gain a Progenitor template (I'm thinking CR +1 or +2), which is comparable to the Advanced template but is a better fit for what I wanted to accomplish.

[sblock="Progenitor template description"]
The Progenitor template grants a +5 inherent bonus* to every ability score, +5 competence bonus to any 10 skills (which can include any Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession skill), X10 to all aging effect thresholds for their race, X10 to their racial base maximum age, and X10 the number of dice added to determine individual maximum age. (I know the Advanced template could accomplish much the same thing, but it doesn't do everything that I would like, such as longevity.)

All original Progenitors ('generation zero') are created in prime adulthood, but the greater longevity does not increase the onset of adulthood for their descendants. As you might expect, this allows for many more children to be produced in a given generation. However, over many generations, the descendants of these first ones will not possess the same measure of perfection as their ancestors. In game terms, the benefits of the Progenitor template decrease by 20% approximately every seven generations. For example, the seventh generation (counting the first ones as 'zero') will retain the full benefits of the Progenitor template, but the eighth generation will only have 80%. To whit:

First Ones and 1st-7th generation Progenitors (human):
+5 inherent bonuses to ability scores
+5 competence bonuses to any 10 skills
Middle age at 35 x 10 = 350 years
Old age at 53 x 10 = 530 years
Venerable age at 70 x 10 = 700 years
Maximum age at 70 x 10 + (2 x 10)d20 = 700 + 20d20 years (min/mean/max: 720 / 910 / 1,100)

8th-14th generation Progenitors (human):
+4 inherent bonuses to ability scores
+4 competence bonuses to any 8 skills
Middle age at 35 x 8 = 280 years
Old age at 53 x 8 = 424 years
Venerable age at 70 x 8 = 560 years
Maximum age at 70 x 8 + (2 x 8)d20 = 560 + 16d20 years (min/mean/max: 576 / 728 / 880)

15th-21st generation Progenitors (human):
+3 inherent bonuses to ability scores
+3 competence bonuses to any 6 skills
Middle age at 35 x 6 = 210 years
Old age at 53 x 6 = 318 years
Venerable age at 70 x 6 = 420 years
Maximum age at 70 x 6 + (2 x 6)d20 = 420 + 12d20 years (min/mean/max: 432 / 546 / 660)

22nd-28th generation Progenitors (human):
+2 inherent bonuses to ability scores
+2 competence bonuses to any 4 skills
Middle age at 35 x 4 = 140 years
Old age at 53 x 4 = 212 years
Venerable age at 70 x 4 = 280 years
Maximum age at 70 x 4 + (2 x 4)d20 = 280 + 8d20 years (min/mean/max: 288 / 364 / 440)

29th-35th generation Progenitors (human):
+1 inherent bonuses to ability scores
+1 competence bonuses to any 2 skills
Middle age at 35 x 2 = 70 years
Old age at 53 x 2 = 106 years
Venerable age at 70 x 2 = 140 years
Maximum age at 70 x 2 + (2 x 2)d20 = 140 + 4d20 years (min/mean/max: 144 / 182 / 220)

The seven-generation cycle is not an exact process. Random chance may cause the decrease to occur one or two generations early or late. (The risk of offspring born near the cusp of a decrease to suffer the decrease: sixth generation, 25%; seventh generation, 50%; eighth generation 25%; ninth generation, 0%). But beyond the 35th generation or so, the Progenitor template is no longer inheritable.

Except under special circumstances, these rules would not even come into play at all; still, that's how I figure it should work. So if a character in my game (or yours, if you want to use these rules) visits an alternate prime that is still "young" as far as material planes go, they might encounter an early-generation Progenitor or a late-generation one, or the PCs might be Progenitors themselves.



*Note that any Progenitors down to the 7th generation would never be able to benefit from a Wish-granted inherent bonus because they are already "maxed out" for inherent bonuses. Indirectly this template also provides an explanation for the existence of the +5 limit: the Wish restores some of the 'perfection of form' that had been lost over time.
[/sblock]

Meanwhile, these new prime material planes do not come with deities, and deities from older primes are not supposed to intrude or interfere with newly-developing primes, not even for beneficent reasons (a sort of cosmological 'prime directive', if you'll pardon the pun). The First Ones and their descendants are meant to develop their own language, culture, and civilization. In the vast majority of cases, the beings that ascend to godhood for any material plane arise from among these initial generations. Individuals may come later (even post-Progenitors) to ascend to deity status and join, or even replace, the primordial pantheons of a given prime. But for the most part the gods who arose first are the ones will be around when the material plane gets 'promoted' to an outer plane.
 
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alexmohr1990

First Post
I'm liking the thought of a native american / asian style there are spirits for everything, not exactly that they exist, or influence the world but in the sense that it's commonly referenced by the inhabitants and what they believe in. I'm big on the thought is power concept and it's what I'm leading with, thus why the Virtues style seems to fit so perfectly.
 

PatCap

Explorer
How about ancestor Worship...or instead of virtues, have the players follow a philosophical code,and they gain access to power based on how committed to their code they are?
 

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