alexmohr1990
First Post
I considered Ancestors, actually, but the basis of play being the world has only been a few generations old didn't make a whole lot of sense. Definitely something for later campaigns though.
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Pathfinder 1E Discussion: Removing Deities & Gods
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Kinak
First Post
I ran a campaign like this a long time ago, inspired by the descriptions of various old school D&D deities as early kings of their races. So the first arc of the campaign was the struggles of these various proto-legendary figures, with the PCs taking increasingly active roles. The second arc was the war against the first risen god and his draconic empire. The final arc was the PCs drifting apart to build their own empires and eventually ascending.
It worked quite well, all told. I'd probably have borrowed heavily from something like Birthright if it'd been available at the time.
If I ran it again I'd include a lot more Lovecraftian elements, as the previous holders of the planet are probably much closer to the surface at thing point. Aboleths are thematically made for this. I do think the first risen god being a dragon still makes a ton of sense, though.
I'd let players draw spells from the proto-gods (like the emperor of the nation they're in) if they're very insistent, but warn them their power is tied to that individual. Worshippers of Lovecraftian beings from before the world was made would probably show up, though.
I'd also be careful how wizard magic is portrayed. There isn't a long body of knowledge for wizards to draw on, so they're either researching, stealing from people who have, or working with sorcerers and witches to find new spells.
As a side note, this campaign sounds like a great use for the Mythic rules when Paizo releases them. The playtest should be coming out shortly, so you might want to try them out.
Cheers!
Kinak
It worked quite well, all told. I'd probably have borrowed heavily from something like Birthright if it'd been available at the time.
If I ran it again I'd include a lot more Lovecraftian elements, as the previous holders of the planet are probably much closer to the surface at thing point. Aboleths are thematically made for this. I do think the first risen god being a dragon still makes a ton of sense, though.
I'd let players draw spells from the proto-gods (like the emperor of the nation they're in) if they're very insistent, but warn them their power is tied to that individual. Worshippers of Lovecraftian beings from before the world was made would probably show up, though.
I'd also be careful how wizard magic is portrayed. There isn't a long body of knowledge for wizards to draw on, so they're either researching, stealing from people who have, or working with sorcerers and witches to find new spells.
As a side note, this campaign sounds like a great use for the Mythic rules when Paizo releases them. The playtest should be coming out shortly, so you might want to try them out.
Cheers!
Kinak
alexmohr1990
First Post
I didn't think of the Wizardry element. Thanks for making that apparent. Perhaps heavy research and study groups. I'm planning to make it Low magic in the sense of players/NPCs, but High Magic in the sense of Unknown happenings, unexplained phenomena and world changing (Being the realm is newly formed, that whole god particle type of concept).
Well, there's a few ways you could make a world that would fit the definition of "atheist". Which kind do you mean?
First let's establish what constitutes a deity from a mechanical perspective. If I understand the intent behind this part of PF, it's that deities (a) are statless characters and (b) can do pretty much anything they want (notwithstanding intervention by a more powerful deity or divine alliance). Not that I intend to comprehensively examine what qualifies a character to be a deity, but I only mention these characteristics to distinguish them from characters which may be super-powerful but are not deities.
Different methods for doing an "atheist" world could include the following:
(a) There's no godlike beings anywhere--the most powerful beings in the universe are just high-level mortals (20th level or epic). No matter how powerful, everyone still dies of old age when their time is up (if nothing else gets them first). There are no game rules in this world (i.e., no in-game method) for achieving anything that could be considered immortality or divine ascension.
(b) Godlike beings do exist, but they are just really super-high-level characters who started out at 1st level like everyone else and/or who have been around a lot longer than the PCs. Perhaps they are like the Goa'uld from the Stargate series: they can intimidate "inferior" creatures into worshipping them as deities but it is a great big scam that doesn't work on other beings of relatively similar power level because they know better. These beings could be immortal, sustained indefinitely through magic or other means, but they can still be killed like anyone else--if you know how and have the means to do it.
(c) Once there were actually "true gods" (genuine statless characters with virtually unlimited power), but they were all killed, destroyed, and/or disappeared under unknown circumstances. There is no more true faith to be found anywhere in meanstream society. Perhaps there is an anti-religious movement or organization that actively discourages or suppresses the open exercise or teaching of religious belief. In any event, even if the gods once existed, they are all gone (or have no more influence among mortal affairs) and it is impossible to "restore" them or to become divine oneself, if that was ever possible to begin with.
alexmohr1990
First Post
I think personally I'm leaning towards (A). More or less the concept I'm going with is Atheist in a sense, or spiritual at minimum, Divine magic, while still power by a faith based system doesn't draw directly from a deity, but while it uses the same energies as Arcane, or similar yet different, it's drawn upon the same way technically but for the person different. Such as a Wizard uses training, symbols of hand motions and materials to draw about an effect from Arcane energy or the elemental planes, the Divine will draw it out in a similar way yet their focus is faith not actual studious energy manipulation.
Razjah
Explorer
I would put more emphasis on the druidism style classes, without gods there is little to grant god-given divine magic. I wouldn't even adjust spell levels for cure spells, without the gods looking out for their creations, healing magic is more difficult. But since you don't want to do this here is another suggestion: simply re-flavor the divine magic as arcane magic being channeled a different way, so different that arcane classes (with few exceptions) cannot duplicate it (like bards getting cure spells).
Paladins, by flavor, don't necessarily need the gods. They draw their power from their convictions in law, order, justice, and THE AMERICAN WAY (cue superman music). So you could have this class without dealing too much with the issue of the world not having gods. If you need to re-flavor this, flavor it along the lines of the sorcerer from 3.5, an instinctive capability to cast "arcane" spells, but the power is fueled by their virtue rather than studied expertise or bloodline capability. This would let you keep the class and still have the spells be divine, just with a different name. A wizard seeing a paladin cast a spell would see magic being channeled in a way foreign to the wizard, as such he cannot duplicate most of those spells (Hooray for different spell lists!).
Now, clerics: there are rules for clerics who do not worship a specific god, but still gain domains. "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies."- from the cleric page of the pathfinder OGC. With that, you could further limit this so that sub-domains are not allowed, large ideas are allowed, but without gods these cannot yet be refined to have sub-domains (once the PCs become gods your world can begin to get sub-domains). I think this may be the easiest way to handle everything mechanically. The magic could still be classified as divine, but with a different name to represent how it is arcane magic being channeled a different way than wizardry, sorcery, bardic, summoning, and witchcraft magic.
Also:
The SRD for Pathfinder You said you are new to GMing, so you may not know of this site. I find it very useful when I run a game, or play.
Paladins, by flavor, don't necessarily need the gods. They draw their power from their convictions in law, order, justice, and THE AMERICAN WAY (cue superman music). So you could have this class without dealing too much with the issue of the world not having gods. If you need to re-flavor this, flavor it along the lines of the sorcerer from 3.5, an instinctive capability to cast "arcane" spells, but the power is fueled by their virtue rather than studied expertise or bloodline capability. This would let you keep the class and still have the spells be divine, just with a different name. A wizard seeing a paladin cast a spell would see magic being channeled in a way foreign to the wizard, as such he cannot duplicate most of those spells (Hooray for different spell lists!).
Now, clerics: there are rules for clerics who do not worship a specific god, but still gain domains. "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies."- from the cleric page of the pathfinder OGC. With that, you could further limit this so that sub-domains are not allowed, large ideas are allowed, but without gods these cannot yet be refined to have sub-domains (once the PCs become gods your world can begin to get sub-domains). I think this may be the easiest way to handle everything mechanically. The magic could still be classified as divine, but with a different name to represent how it is arcane magic being channeled a different way than wizardry, sorcery, bardic, summoning, and witchcraft magic.
Also:
The SRD for Pathfinder You said you are new to GMing, so you may not know of this site. I find it very useful when I run a game, or play.
alexmohr1990
First Post
[MENTION=98806]Razjah[/MENTION]: Your summary is excellent and i'm confident that's more or less the path I want to go with it. Thanks for the srd link, I think I was using a different one. I was rather confused on Paladins, thanks for that clarification. I also agree with the subdomain concept, makes a lot of sense.
I love all the ideas thus far! Once I get more comfortable with DM I'll definitely branch out. I love the idea of removing godfearing classes entirely cleaned out.
I love all the ideas thus far! Once I get more comfortable with DM I'll definitely branch out. I love the idea of removing godfearing classes entirely cleaned out.
Razjah
Explorer
If you like the idea of removing the "godfearing" classes (with deities active, everyone should be a little godfearing or they're crazy) , then do that. In my experience, one of the best ways to convey the feel of a world is through class limitations and changes. If no clerics exist, it really drives home the lack of gods; a grim world wouldn't have paladins crusading against the forces of darkness.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
In Rite Publishing Kaidan setting - Japanese horror (PFRPG), there really aren't any gods, at least not the normal sort found in typical D&D/PF style. Following Japan as a template, there is a twisted form of Buddhism using the Wheel of Life cosmology which powers divine magic for it's practioners.
Also a shamanistic religion based on Shinto primarily practiced by the yokai races of Kaidan (kappa, kitsune, korobokuru, henge, and tengu), and is called Yokinto. Kami spirits form the 'gods' of Yokinto worship which consist of ancestral spirits and nature spirits.
But gods as depicted by Golarian or other fantasy settings do not exist there. There are a variety of divine classes including clerics, inquisitors, oracles and paladins in Kaidan (each with unique Asian archetypes).
Also a shamanistic religion based on Shinto primarily practiced by the yokai races of Kaidan (kappa, kitsune, korobokuru, henge, and tengu), and is called Yokinto. Kami spirits form the 'gods' of Yokinto worship which consist of ancestral spirits and nature spirits.
But gods as depicted by Golarian or other fantasy settings do not exist there. There are a variety of divine classes including clerics, inquisitors, oracles and paladins in Kaidan (each with unique Asian archetypes).
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