Divination Dilemma

[bloodtide]

So it's been said time and time again that 3X wizards are so powerful. And one thing that is always said(as was recently said in the spell vs mundane thread) that Divination is alone 'too powerful' and 'game breaking' and that a wizard with a couple of divination spells can 'know everything' and then prepare for anything.

I see this posted all the time, but never any details. People just say 'divination is all powerful' and log off.

So I look through all the divination spells...plenty of good and useful spells, but I just don't see any spell that lets a wizard ''know everything''.

So if we have Zora, our 20th level wizard example, exactly what divination spell(s) does she cast in the morning that let her know 'everything' that will happen that day and how to prepare for them?

 

[Dandu]

Contact Other Plane comes to mind.

 

[Sekhmet]

Assume your Wizard has access to Teleport and Scrying.
At any point in the day where the Wizard potentially becomes endangered, especially by enemies, he Teleports (usually Contingent) to a safe location and casts Scrying on the enemy.
He now knows exactly where the enemy is, what exists in a 10' circle around the subject, has the ability to hear and see him, and if the subject moves your sensor follows him.

Allowing a Wizard an amount of time to prepare for any given scenario is like allowing Batman time to prepare.
Even Superman is afraid of that.

With the appropriate information, the Wizard can merely Scry the BBEG of your campaign, prepare the appropriate equipment and spells, Teleport to him, kill him, take the loot, and effectively avoid your dungeon altogether.

 

[Vegepygmy]

So if we have Zora, our 20th level wizard example, exactly what divination spell(s) does she cast in the morning that let her know 'everything' that will happen that day and how to prepare for them?

Dandu's answer illustrates the point you're making. Not only do you incur a chance of blasting your mind, but there is no guarantee the information you obtain will be accurate, and even if it is, you're limited to a handful of questions that can only be answered "yes," "no," "maybe," "never," "irrelevant" or some other not-very-helpful way.

Yet people seem to think contact other plane is some ridiculously overpowered spell.

Sekhmet's answer isn't much better, as it assumes that being able to see approximately 10 feet around the subject in all directions is sufficient to provide "some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination" you're going to teleport to, that you will arrive on target, that the subject doesn't make its Will save or employ any of the multitude of magical (sometimes even mundane) defenses against scrying, etc., etc.

Can scrying/teleport be an effective way to ambush an enemy? Absolutely. Is it an undefeatable "I win" button you can press any time you feel like it? No, not even close.

Yet people will argue that it "breaks the game" at high levels.

My advice: if you haven't experienced the alleged problem(s) in your own games, don't worry about what the people who have experienced them say, because you're not playing the same game as they are. And if your game isn't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Sekhmet]

Sekhmet's answer isn't much better, as it assumes that being able to see approximately 10 feet around the subject in all directions is sufficient to provide "some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination" you're going to teleport to, that you will arrive on target, that the subject doesn't make its Will save or employ any of the multitude of magical (sometimes even mundane) defenses against scrying, etc., etc.

That's simply the lowest level way to do it.
Being able to see the exact location you're teleporting to can't be considered anything more than "a clear idea of the location and layout".

At higher levels, Discern Location becomes a much more reliable method.
Moment of Prescience more or less guarantees beating your opponent's Will save for Scrying.

 

[bloodtide]

Assume your Wizard has access to Teleport and Scrying.
At any point in the day where the Wizard potentially becomes endangered, especially by enemies, he Teleports (usually Contingent) to a safe location and casts Scrying on the enemy.
He now knows exactly where the enemy is, what exists in a 10' circle around the subject, has the ability to hear and see him, and if the subject moves your sensor follows him.

Allowing a Wizard an amount of time to prepare for any given scenario is like allowing Batman time to prepare.
Even Superman is afraid of that.

With the appropriate information, the Wizard can merely Scry the BBEG of your campaign, prepare the appropriate equipment and spells, Teleport to him, kill him, take the loot, and effectively avoid your dungeon altogether.

Ok, but what can Scrying really get you? So you can watch the foe go about their daily life. And you can even plan an attack when there pants are down. But that is about it. You don't find out any weaknesses or such about the foe. All you can really do is teleport in and blast away with your best attack. So at most the wizard gets a surprise round, and then they are left standing less then ten feet from the foe.

And most foes over 10th level or so, will have anti-scrying and anti-teleport things up anyway.

As I see it now, the whole scry and teleport only works in a lowly pathetic 'Lord of the Rings' type setting where the BBEG is a 11th level commoner with a sharp stick.

And I was hoping for more detail on Contact Outer Plane, like what questions would you ask to 'know everything'.

 

[Sekhmet]

Stuff.

If you don't believe that giving a Wizard (or his entire group) the ability to know what the BBEG is wearing, the ability to determine what spells he has cast, and the ability to ambush him in his sleep is "too much", then your game is very different to mine.
At high levels, encounters end in the first few rounds based on save-or-dies or absurdly high damage numbers.
Being prepared and the surprise round are everything.

 

[2e Player]

There are many ways to foil scrying. It is a good spell but if your 'BBEG' is known to the PCs and has taken no steps to avoid being scried upon, he probably isn't a very good 'BBEG' in the first place.

As for Contact Other Plane, you must have a really nice DM if you think that spell is game-breaking.

 

[The Red King]

Spells like that are why my character always wears a costume. And undresses in the dark.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Being able to see the exact location you're teleporting to can't be considered anything more than "a clear idea of the location and layout".

"He's standing in a field of grass, extending 10 feet around him in all directions. It looks like the weather is probably pretty nice, wherever he is."

"He appears to be swimming in a body of water, could be an ocean, or it could be a lake. No way to tell, really, since you can only see 10 feet around him in all directions."

Two extreme examples, certainly, but they serve to illustrate how being able to see 10 feet around the subject in all directions can be anything less than "a clear idea of the location and layout."

If you don't believe that giving a Wizard (or his entire group) the ability to know what the BBEG is wearing, the ability to determine what spells he has cast, and the ability to ambush him in his sleep is "too much", then your game is very different to mine.

Exactly! Something we can agree on! I don't believe that a wizard knowing what the BBEG is wearing (clothes? specifically, a red shirt and black pants?) or what spells he has cast (assuming they have continual visual effects, I guess, or he happens to cast them during the few minutes you happen to be scrying him), or when he happens to be asleep (wait, wait, don't tell me...is it at night? it's at night, isn't it?) is "too much." And apparently Bloodtide doesn't, either.

You and many others do, judging by what I read on the Internet. So we must be playing very different games, I think.