Divine Challenge at the end of your turn

[beepeearr]

You mark the target. The target remains marked until
you use this power against another target, or if you fail
to engage the target (see below).

On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged
or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge
on your next turn.

You can use divine challenge once per turn.

Looking at the key sentences in question, here is my take.

This is a very poorly worded power. Way too many contradictions. For instance why spend a minor action to use this power against another target when you can apparently switch targets each round, and if you can just simply switch targets like it currently implies, are we to assume the new target must be in the initial burst, or just within a certain numbers of the paladin while the power is active.

If you can't just switch targets, why even have that sentence, if you are in fact simply using the power again (spending the minor action to do so). This entire sentence could have been omitted.

Or can you only switch targets if you did not engage your previous target, say you DC a goblin one round, attack him the next and drop him, can you switch the target of your previous DC (neither death or unconsciousness are listed as reasons for the DC to end) or do you have to spend a minor to reactivate DC.

Also I don't read it as you have to engage on the turn you used DC, just as having to engage at the next available opportunity or switch to a new target. Other wise it would have been worded as such. Note that it says you must engage or choose a new target, not engage or choose a new target and engage it. It also never specifically states that you must engage it on the turn it is activated, only that the targets need to be engaged in order for the mark to remain after it's initial creation.

It's seems both reasonable and in character for a Paladin to be able to attack his foe, slaying it, then move towards an ally under attack, DC his opponent, using up his available actions. Next round if he fails to engage that opponent or designate a new one, DC ends and he can't use it next turn.

Both interpretations have flaws though. lack of significant wording tends to lead to one, while the other could lead to a situation were the paladin never engages an opponent, but instead switches targets every round.

I think this just a prime example of a change they made at the last minute, but didn't get the chance to fine tune the rules or wording. Kind of like they've done with the skill system. Skill challenges used to be too hard, now they seem too easy.

If I had to right this rule I think I would go with something like this.

You mark the target. The target remains marked until
you use this power against another target, or if you fail
to engage the target (see below).

You must engage the target you challenged by the end of your next turn

To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

You can use divine challenge once per turn.

The wording is simple and clear and the confusion of why use the power if you can simply switch targets is removed. if for some reason you won't be able to engage your target spend the minor action to DC a different opponent (since the target of a DC cannot be targeted by another one) so you don't lose the ability to so for a round.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is a very poorly worded power. Way too many contradictions. For instance why spend a minor action to use this power against another target when you can apparently switch targets each round, and if you can just simply switch targets like it currently implies, are we to assume the new target must be in the initial burst, or just within a certain numbers of the paladin while the power is active.

You switch targets by using your Divine Challenge class feature on a new opponent... which requires a minor action.

If you can't just switch targets, why even have that sentence, if you are in fact simply using the power again (spending the minor action to do so). This entire sentence could have been omitted.

No, it couldn't.

If we omit that sentence, it changes the way the power works.

Scenario:
Round 1: I spend a minor action to challenge target A, and then shoot at him with my bow.
Round 2: I spend a minor action to challenge target B, and move and attack him.

In round 3, I can use my Divine Challenge feature.

But let's say we removed "or challenge a different target" from that sentence. In this case, in round 2, target A was the target of my divine challenge at the start of the round, but by the end of the round, I have not engaged him; I am not adjacent to him, nor have I attacked him. I am now forbidden from using my Divine Challenge feature in round 3, because I failed to engage target A before the end of my turn.

Fortunately, they included "or challenge a different target" in the list of events that would prevent that misfortune befalling me, so the fact that I challenged target B - a different target - means I'm not forbidden from using Divine Challenge in round 3.

Also I don't read it as you have to engage on the turn you used DC, just as having to engage at the next available opportunity or switch to a new target. Other wise it would have been worded as such.

It is worded as such. It says "by the end of your turn". It doesn't say "at the next available opportunity".

Note that it says you must engage or choose a new target, not engage or choose a new target and engage it. It also never specifically states that you must engage it on the turn it is activated, only that the targets need to be engaged in order for the mark to remain after it's initial creation.

It says "by the end of your turn".

You choose a new target (target B). You use your Divine Challenge feature on target B. What does your Divine Challenge feature say? It says you must engage target B, or challenge a different target from target B, by the end of your turn. If you don't, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge next round.

Have you challenged a target different from target B before the end of your turn? No - you challenged target A last round, not this round, so he doesn't count; and you can only use Divine Challenge once per round, so you can't challenge anyone else this turn. So by the end of your turn, you must challenge a different target from target B (which we've just determined you cannot do), or you must engage target B. If you haven't engaged target B by the end of your turn, no more Divine Challenge!

It's seems both reasonable and in character for a Paladin to be able to attack his foe, slaying it, then move towards an ally under attack, DC his opponent, using up his available actions. Next round if he fails to engage that opponent or designate a new one, DC ends and he can't use it next turn.

Reasonable and in character, perhaps, but not in keeping with the wording of the class feature. If he fails to engage the opponent by the end of his turn, the marked condition ends and he can't use DC next round.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

There seems to be some misconceptions about what Divine Challenge actually is. It isn't some dude pointing at another and saying 'You're Next.' First, it's a power. Secondly, it has the Divine keyword. This makes it a prayer. This is a paladin assaulting someone with either sword, spell, or slingstone, while praying to his font of holy power that the foe continue the fight with him, or else. It isn't just a matter of saying to the enemy you want to fight him, it's a Divinely empowered affect and a compulsion on the target. In other words, it'd be called a spell-like effect in previous editions. Engaging a target means being adjacent to them. In rp terms, it isn't two enemies standing side by side waving hello at each other. There's generally swords clashing and footing going back and forth, and while there's no implicit attack made (some auras change this, however), that's more due to the skill of the characters at evading or parrying most blows than an actual lack of attacking. Divine Challenge works until you're no longer engaged in combat. That means either not attacking that target with actual attacks, or not being adjacent to them engaged in the minor ineffectual clash of blows represented by being adjacent.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

This is a very poorly worded power.

Actually, as Hypersmurf points out, it's not. Once you understand how it works, it's actually very hard to describe it in as few words as the rulebook does, without seeming even more clunky and open to misinterpretation. Believe me, I've tried.

Here's a restatement of the rules for when you can use a divine challenge, and when you can't:
1. At any time except as stated in (2) and (3) below, you can spend a minor action to challenge someone, and then, in the same round, engage them (by either attacking or ending your turn adjacent)
2. If you challenge someone, and aren't able to engage them by the end of the same turn in which you challenge them, the challenge ends. If that happens, you can't use the challenge power in your next turn.
3. If you have challenged someone, that challenge continues indefinitely, as long as you engage the target on every one of your turns. If you ever end a turn without engaging a target, the challenge ends and you cannot use the challenge next turn.
4. If you have an ongoing challenge against one target, you can challenge another target. This immediately ends the first challenge, and you spend a minor action to challenge the new target - go back to step 1 for the rules covering that.

I think that covers everything.

 

[inati]

It seems that words aren't getting people anywhere. How about pictograms?

 

[Anand]

Quick question: when the damage of DC occours? Before or after the maked opponent attack?

 

[FireLance]

Quick question: when the damage of DC occours? Before or after the maked opponent attack?

I run it as an immediate reaction. The marked opponent gets to make his attack roll and possibly deal damage against the target before he takes damage from divine challenge.

 

[DracoSuave]

I run it as an immediate reaction. The marked opponent gets to make his attack roll and possibly deal damage against the target before he takes damage from divine challenge.

It's not an -immediate- reaction but it does happen after the attack is made. It's just not an action at all, but rather a triggered effect, and happens after the effect that triggered it. However, it's not -immediate- because it doesn't use up the paladin's pool of immediate actions.

 

[FireLance]

It's not an -immediate- reaction but it does happen after the attack is made. It's just not an action at all, but rather a triggered effect, and happens after the effect that triggered it. However, it's not -immediate- because it doesn't use up the paladin's pool of immediate actions.

Okay, I run it like an immediate reaction, then.

 

[DracoSuave]

Okay, I run it like an immediate reaction, then.

Alright.

'This doesn't taste like Raspberries!'

'That's cause it's Raspberry-like'