DM advice: How do you NOT kill your party?

Ranthalan

First Post
maligning

I'm not sure you know what that word means. I guess I'm one of your meta-gamers. (By your definition, Personally, I agree with the definition above where it's the player's use of knowledge unavailable to their character.) The first thing I tell my table at session 0 is, "we are creating a story." And yes, as a DM I change stuff on the fly all the time in the service of making things more exciting or getting a player more involved. I've cherry picked magic items that would be useful to particular characters because it would be more fun for the players. There's nothing wrong with that. Just as there's nothing wrong with your approach. I, and the people I play with, just have a different preference.

There are two definitions for Rule 0, but I think they both apply. The older definition, the one I grew up with, is "The DM can override any rule". The newer definition is "Roleplaying games are entertainment; your goal as a group is to make your games as entertaining as possible."

That said, I don't go around maligning the hobby. Quite the opposite in fact, I try to recruit as many new players as I can.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Is it? I'm going to have to ask for a citation on that one.

By my understanding of the term, metagaming only applies to players. It means using out of character knowledge to inform your character's actions. Even there I think there's good metagaming - come up with reasons your PC would travel with other PCs - and bad metagaming - using player knowledge of monster stats to determine your PC's combat tactics..

I don't see why that's necessarily "bad metagaming." It's none of my business, as a player or a DM, why a player makes a particular decision for his or her character. It is my business that we all have fun and help create an exciting, memorable story together since that is the shared goal of this game. To that end, I think it's possible to use knowledge of monster stats to determine a PC's combat tactics and still achieve the goals of play. That's made easier in my experience when the DM and other players aren't playing thought police about how or why a player makes a decision.
 

There are two definitions for Rule 0, but I think they both apply. The older definition, the one I grew up with, is "The DM can override any rule". The newer definition is "Roleplaying games are entertainment; your goal as a group is to make your games as entertaining as possible."
There is an older rule, or more like advice to the DM, stretching at least back to Basic; and that rule is, "Be fair". If you cheat, then you're just wasting everyone's time, and nobody will want to play with you.

That said, I don't go around maligning the hobby. Quite the opposite in fact, I try to recruit as many new players as I can.
If you go around telling potential players that a good DM should contrive coincidences in the world in the name of telling a story or providing an appropriate challenge, then you are spreading false information that damages the reputation of the role-playing hobby. No good DM would ever meta-game in such a fashion.
 


Ranthalan

First Post
I don't see why that's necessarily "bad metagaming." It's none of my business, as a player or a DM, why a player makes a particular decision for his or her character. It is my business that we all have fun and help create an exciting, memorable story together since that is the shared goal of this game. To that end, I think it's possible to use knowledge of monster stats to determine a PC's combat tactics and still achieve the goals of play. That's made easier in my experience when the DM and other players aren't playing thought police about how or why a player makes a decision.

I don't disagree at all, but there are players and DMs who are adament against it. It's one of the things I determine in session 0, how much metagaming does the table want.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
The first rule of role-playing is, quite literally, "Thou shalt not meta-game."

I don't seem to recall this. I'm sure you won't mind quoting the Edition & page # etc for this rule (unless you're going to point to 4e - -in wich case don't bother)

If the DM tailors the world to fit the capabilities of the party, then that's meta-gaming, and none of the players' decisions actually matter. You have essentially already decided the outcome, when you take their capabilities into account. If you consider their ability to handle a troll, before you decide whether or not there's a troll in that room, then their choice of whether or not to prepare for trolls becomes irrelevant - regardless of whether you decide to give them something they can handle, or to exploit a perceived weakness for the sake of drama. The only way for their decisions to mean anything is for you to not meta-game based on it.

Please enlighten me as to how I'm supposed to write up the next adventure, making sure that it's fun & challenging (and meaningful!), for the people actually sitting at my table - without taking their, or their characters, capabilities into account.

So I look at the Troll.
1) Does it make sense to have a troll in this encounter? Let's assume "Yes".
2) OK, so will it be fun to have a troll in this encounter? Fun for the players? Fun for me, the DM? If either of those answers would be "No" then I go looking for some other monster....

The DM isn't a god.

No, I'm just the all-powerful being that controls & creates everything save 3-7 characters.


The DM is a neutral arbiter. The DM doesn't have opinions, or preferences; or if they do, they don't let those things cloud their judgment. The DM simply tells you what you can perceive, and role-plays the NPCs, and adjudicates uncertainty in action resolution.

Look, I'm not an AL DM. My opinions & preferences matter a very great deal. They'll have a direct impact on who gets to play, what races & classes get used/settings/rulings/themes & types of adventures/etc.
 

TheSword

Legend
Your job isn't to present a believable challenge. Your job is to describe the environment, role-play the NPCs, and adjudicate uncertainty in action resolution. Making decisions for every goblin and/or hobgoblin in the area is part of the second task.
If you don't understand that meta-gaming is bad, or why meta-gaming is bad, then you are in no position to offer advice. You must correct your error if you want anyone to take you seriously as anything other than a troll.

With all due respect, please moderate your tone. I appreciate your opinion is your own. However you have no right to tell people not to share their opinion, particularly when there are several other posters who agree with them. If you attack me personally again I will flag your post. I’m happy to engage with you in the discussion but I won’t respond to posts that attempt to intimidate a person out of a discussion.
 

TheSword

Legend
In D&D 5e, there is a section in the DMG (page 235) that discusses "Metagame Thinking." Taken as a whole, it's an injunction to remind players not to make uninformed decisions that lead to a bad outcome. The examples it cites are players thinking that "the DM wouldn't throw such powerful a monster at the characters" (presumably leading to their unexpected demise when the players decide to fight it) and players believing that the time spent on the description of a door necessarily means that it must be important (presumably meaning the players waste time investigating it).

What the DMG doesn't say is that doing so is in any way a violation of the rules. But the smart play is to use in-game actions to verify one's assumptions before acting on them.

Thanks for the direction. I did go back and check this morning and for the record it does specifically call out ‘player knowledge’ as the example which you have quoted above.

The same section also also suggests that the DM modify the campaign to fit the party’s particular power.

“You can curb metagame thinking by setting up situations that will be difficult for the characters and that might require negotiation or retreat to survive.” - DMG 235

In order to do this the DM has to critically decide what their particular groups strength is and adjust foes accordingly. You can use a Balor to remind the party to run away but if the party is made up of paladins then a Balor might not be the right choice. To do this effectively without being unreasonable the DM has to use their knowledge of the party.

The DMG also echcoes the point I was making in the section Something for all Players.

“An adventure needs to account for all the players and characters in the group, drawing them into the story as effectively as possible.” DMG page 71.

It also discusses published adventures

“You can make adjustments to a published adventure so that it better suits your campaign and appeals to your players...” on of the examples it gives is to “add something to the background of the adventure so that it involve your player’s characters in what’s that the adventure’s designer never could have imagined.” DMG page72

I agree that checking with experienced players about what their expectations are going into the campaign is a good call. If I expected a game like PMing’s which is a strict ‘what will be will be game’ with foes mapped out in advance and written in isolation and get me as a DM then that could cause a problem. To be clear though up to this point a lack of comms between players and DMG has never been discussed. Only that some styles of DMing are inherently different.

[Edit] Great advice on page 6 of the DMG. A whole page of suggestions for how to design or modify an adventure to keep your players interested and immersed. Full of ideas for how to tailor adventures to your players.
 
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Doug McCrae

Legend
[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] A purely "world-centric" approach to rpg-ing where nothing is tailored to the PCs is a perfectly valid way to run a rpg. But it's not the only or even the most common way to do it. D&D has always supported the tailored approach to some degree. The early modules all had recommended levels very clearly displayed on the front cover. All the WotC editions of D&D have provided mechanisms for balancing encounters. 3e is clear that both tailored and status quo encounters are reasonable tools for the DM to use. The relevant section is page 48 of the 3.5 DMG.
 

That's made easier in my experience when the DM and other players aren't playing thought police about how or why a player makes a decision.

^ This.

As a DM I do not concern myself with why the players make a particular decision. In fact, I often remind them that they ARE allowed to think as players too, because this is a game after all. It is up to them whether they go for what their character would do, what they would do, or if they find a happy compromise between the two. I only encourage them to confirm their ideas in-game.
 

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