DM depressed about Shapechange

[Campbell]

Hmmm, true, I hadn't noticed that. You get the creature's physical ability scores, but not its BAB or HP. Interesting. What I said still stands as far as I'm concerned though - Shapechange wasn't at the heart of it anyway.

9th level spells do indeed require a certain paradigm shift that not everyone will be comfortable with. Specifically, spells like Gate, Shapechange, and Wish often through prewritten adventures through a severe loop. It is important to remember that enemy spellcasters also have access to these same spells.

It an interesting story element could revolve around how outsiders might view a mage who undertakes their form. Perhaps assuming the [Evil] subtype could have an effect on the caster's psychological perspective. I'd also keep in mind that using poison and disease as weapons are evil acts, and good dieties might not be very happy with a spell caster who causes havok and destruction on the prime through the guise of a demon.

 

[Tessarael]

You should also consider banning Shapechange. It is a spell that can be too good, as you pointed out.

 

[Raylis]

As said earlier and if I'm remembering Polymorph right, all equipment that you have is melded into your new form and is essentially nulled i.e. the rings and the bracers would cease to function while you are in a form that's not your own.

Raylis


"Don't fear the darkness, fear what's IN the darkness"

 

[Cheiromancer]

Also check out the Rules of the Game articles on the Polymorph Chain of spells. E.g. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

Some of the rules there contradict the PHB rules that Campbell quotes. For instance, the size limits have largely been waived for polymorph, ("The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal") and the rules for equipment resizing have also been made less restrictive:

For purposes of most polymorph effects, one can divide creatures into types that have basically humanoid shapes and those that do not, as follows:

Humanoid Shapes ....... Nonhumanoid Shapes
Fey.......................... Aberration
Giant........................ Animal
Humanoid.................. Dragon
Monstrous Humanoid... Elemental
Outsider* ................. Ooze
............................... Vermin
*Most, but not all outsiders have humanoid shapes.

In general, a change from one form that has a humanoid shape to another form that has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The subject's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form. The spellcaster can change minor details in your equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration.

 

[Campbell]

Also check out the Rules of the Game articles on the Polymorph Chain of spells. E.g. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

Some of the rules there contradict the PHB rules that Campbell quotes. For instance, the size limits have largely been waived for polymorph, ("The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal") and the rules for equipment resizing have also been made less restrictive:

This sort of thing is part of why I am not a huge fan of that particular column. I do not like how they present new unplaytested rules within the confines of articles meant to clarify existing rules. If unilateral changes need to be made to the rules I believe they should be part of the errata process.

 

[FrankinLondon]

Guys

Excellent points all. A few replies of my own to some of them :-

1) (To Klaus)

Thanks for the pointers on the mechanics of Shapechange.

- I agree that the spell lasts 3 hours. I think this is excessive.
- I agree that you gain Su and Ex abilities (but not SLAs). Also, you lose your original Su abilities. Trouble is, a Pitfiend has loads of Su abilities and my party's Sorcerer has none, so he sees that as a good deal.
- Most of the monsters in my module are evil and don't weild Bane (Evil Outsider) weapons, so this isn't a deterrent. Issuing most of the monsters with these weapons feels a bit artificial to me.
- Unfortunately, in our last two adventure, the big baddie was a Pit Fiend, so the Sorcerer is pretty familiar with them.
- Our Sorcerer (like most) keeps his material components in a belt pouch. The Alter Self spell states that equipment "remains worn by the new form (if it is capable of wearing the item)". I see no reason why a Pitfiend can't wear a belt
- I agree, Shapechange is dispellable, but against an 18th level caster, this isn't easy and the Sorcerer will have more Shapechanges to cast.
- I'd much rather have Meter Swarms cast at my baddies than fhave them fight a Shapechanged Sorcerer. I don't think I'm going to much use of Wish from my PCs because of the XP loss.

2) (To Campbell)

Thanks for the info on Alter Self and Polymorph. I actually consider myself a bit of a rules expert (here's you chance to make me regret saying that ), and disagree with one of the conclusions you draw.

Alter Self specifically states "your hit points remain the same", so we agree there. However, Polymorph (which supercedes Alter Self) then states "The subject gains the constitution scores of the new form". My party's sorcerer has a Con of 16. However, a Pitfiend has a Con of 27. This will then grant the Sorcerer and additional 5*18 hitpoints = 90 hit points. Hence the reason for the Sorcerer now having approx 200 hp as I stated in my first post.

I agree that BAB and Base Saves are not affected (but actual Fort Saves are due to change in Con). This is why I quoted the Sorcerer "only" having an attack bonus of +20 with his claws (a real Pitfiend has +30). Incidentally, a real Pitfiend has the multiattack feat, the sorcerer doesn't hence his secondary attacks are all at + 15 as compared to a real Pitfiend who has +28).

Interesting point about use of poison and the Evil subtype. However, our Sorcerer is L/N and worships Wee Jas who also has LE worshipers. I can't see that (disfavour from the deity) being much of a deterrent in this case.

3) (To WayneLigon)

The big baddie at the end will almost certainly use AntiMagic shell. However, there is a limit to how many of your baddies can use this spell. I hope for much of the adventure to be competitive, not just the last room.

4) (To Michael Morris)

Pitfiends are 18 hit dice, so perfectly legal (as well as familar).

5) (To Tessarael)

If the campaign were wholly mine I might consider banning Shapechange (or houseruling it to a duration of 1 round/level). However, I play in a group of 8 where all of us DM occasionally (although the bulk of the DM'ing falls to three of us). We tend to opt for majority vote after much e-mail discussion. I am really using this thread to gather info and opinions before I start that debate.

6) (To Raylis)

Why can't a Pitfiend wear rings and bracers? In the same (official WoTC) module I am going to run there is a Dragon wearing a ring and a Balor wearing a belt of Giant Strength.

Anyway guys, thanks for your thoughts. I'd appreciate more, especially ideas on how to prevent 60% of my dungeon succumbing to a DC27 will save against Fear Aura.

Frank

 

[Campbell]

FrankinLondon: You are indeed correct on the hit point front. I'm stilll used to how Constitution buffs in 3.0 did not add any additional hit points. I still do not like how this interacts with the polymorph spells in 3.5, but it is indeed RAW.

 

[knifespeaks]

Well, I have never experienced something akin to what you are faced with Frank - but here's my take:

First off, the players have to understand that the game must remian, at all times, a challenge. I doubt you are likely to get much argument there! SO, using that as a basis:

Shapechange is a SHAPE change. You get all the good stuff, but NONE of the bad - certainly in this instance there is very little of a negative nature that has been presented thus far. But you get the supernatural abilities of (in this case) a Pit Fiend - a greater devil. How do Pit Fiends get these abilities?

Devils are extra-planar creatures. Their form, their very essence, is utterly alien to humans/humanoids from the Prime Material Plane. It is this 'otherworldly' nature that gives them their powers (consider Superman in the same light. He was just 'regular' for his kind, but down here, on Earth he was altogether different). I don't think it is then stretching the limit of the magic to say that, to gain the shape, as per this spell, of a Pit Fiend means the caster 'taps into' this otherworldly nature - for all intents and purposes they ARE Pit Fiends.

This raises the alignment spectre, but with Wee-Jas in the picture, that presents no great difficulty. But what of the mind of the caster? Is it strong enough, flexible enough, to control the bodies' link to this otherworldly nature? Is it not possible that the mind could be lost to the body - especially one that is so much more powerful than any form the caster has assumed before? Consider the inner torment of Bruce Banner and his time as the Hulk - there is a parallel you can perhaps expand on.

I am not advocating advising the player of this either! Allow the change - watch the delight grow, as both the player AND as the character start to 'flex' the muscles this form gives them - and begin to introduce a feeling, in the mind of the caster, that all is not well.

The outcome of staying in this form should be that the soul risks being consumed. The player risks losing his identity, lost in the swirling maelstrom that is the otherworldly nature of a Pit Fiend.

How exactly the mechanic works I leave to you to design. But magic of this kind shouldn't be the exact science of a magic missile. Consider how wish spells are handled, and I see no reason to not be similarly restrictive for shape change. Shapechanging to less powerful/fanatstic/otherworldly etc beings doesn't of course pose the same problems - you want the spell to be useful, after all.

 

[BelXiror]

Fear Aura (Su): A pit fiend can radiate a 20-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 27 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 18th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same pit fiend’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.


The DC of the fear aura may change depending on the Sorcerers charisma.

But, more importantly, the fear aura isn't discriminating. It works on ANY creature within 20ft. Allies included.

 

[Eremite]

Alter Self specifically states "your hit points remain the same", so we agree there. However, Polymorph (which supercedes Alter Self) then states "The subject gains the constitution scores of the new form". My party's sorcerer has a Con of 16. However, a Pitfiend has a Con of 27. This will then grant the Sorcerer and additional 5*18 hitpoints = 90 hit points. Hence the reason for the Sorcerer now having approx 200 hp as I stated in my first post.

In one of the FAQs or errata issued for this spell, it clearly stipulates that hit points do not change (*). After all, that's the clear intent of the description from alter self at the beginning of this chain of spells. I believe that the rationale is that it otherwise becomes too difficult to recalculate hit points each round with each new form potentially assumed.

I'm not sure if this has been addressed in the replies, but I wouldn't allow this spell to grant spell resistance. I realise that SR is either Ex or Su but the fact that it is not specifically called out as such in the descriptions in the MM makes me think that it is not supposed to be an ability or quality that is granted by shapechange.

FWIW, I had a wizard in my last high level campaign use this spell, and this form, with great frequency (he also liked to use the beholder with its antimagic eye ray a lot). Until the point he discovered this spell he had played his character extraordinarily ineffectively (and if it wasn't for a well played druid and a reasonably effective cleric the party would not have lasted to these levels) but this spell made him a fair bit more useful without breaking the game.

*: There is also a ruling by Skip somewhere that says that hit points do change but I still think the best thing to do with his rulings is ignore them.