DM Dilemma

[Nimble Goodbarrel]

I have a problem that I once again need some opinions on.

I DM for a group of three players. All are my longtime friends. Recently, even with the change over to 4e which I thought would breathe new life into our group I find myself coming back to the same old problem.

I feel that my group are just power gamers and I confronted them this weekend about this issue. I asked them to tell me what charges them up about gaming. Is it role playing, rolling the dice, puzzles etc. I just wanted them to help me out a little bit with what they really want to get out of it. You would think that I should know by now, but I don't.

They each came back to me basically saying that they liked rolling the dice, killing monsters, and figuring things out. But they also said that roleplaying is an essential part of our game.

I then asked them to explain how they have been role playing. They expressed to me that using their Althetics skill to jump across a pool of water is role playing. I disagreed and said that was more or die rolling than anything else. They mentioned puzzles and riddles as role playing but I disagreed again.

I think this comes down to a basic discomfort with role playing in our group. So I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on how I can make this more comfortable or what I could do to help my players role play a little more.

Also, I know that this sounds like I am trying to force my players to role play when they don't want to, but we all decided to try to find ways to improve the role playing aspect of our game.

Thanks again for you continued support,

Nimble Goodbarrel
Toronto, ON

 

[Storm Raven]

1. Are they enjoying the game?
2. Are you enjoying the game?

If the answers to these questions is yes, then I wouldn't worry about whether there is enough "roleplaying" going on or not. There is no ideal amount of roleplaying other than that amount which creates enjoyment for those involved in the game.

 

[maddman75]

The biggest hurdle is getting them to disassociate what's on their character sheet with what they can do. Don't just let them roll a skill check, ask them exactly what they are doing. Social skills, of course, but with all skills. For instance, rather than 'I rolled 17 on Athletics and jump the stream', ask them exactly how they are going to do this. Hand out bonuses like they're candy at halloween to the folks that play along.

Another trick is to get into it yourself. You're going to have to risk looking foolish to your players. But you're all friends, right? If you're speaking in first character, maybe doing a funny voice, making gestures and so on, they'll be more likely to get into the act. Though I'll note that one of my rules is that I only do a voice or accent for a character that's supposed to be lighthearted and silly unless I know I can do it very, very well. Because unless you really bring a performance, they're going to take the character as silly.

Finally, figure out what makes their characters tick. One thing I dislike about almost all versions of D&D is that the rules don't give you much idea about this. You know how the characters fight very well, but next to nothing about why they fight. If need be, you can use Dread-style questionnaires, ask the players to answer them right before a game. Another trick is flagging - hand them a highlighter and tell them to mark the three things on their character they think are the coolest - could be a feat, power, magic item, or even a bit of background detail. If you include these, the players will be more into the game and more likely to let loose.

And of course, don't force it. Roleplaying isn't any great science - all children know how to do it. We adults only need rules because we've forgotten.

 

[amerigoV]

Roleplaying can mean different things. Do they roleplay some amongst the characters? They may be more comfortable with some RP between each other and let the die roll (diplomacy, bluff) handle the task with you as the DM.

One thing you might consider is creating getting a list of disadvantages or hindrinces. I have been playing some Savage Worlds and I find I can get into the character quicker with this approach (roleplay, make decisions that the character would vs. metagame, etc). Presuming you do not want to change systems, just have them pick a couple and award them action points or a free re-roll for good roleplay (you don't give them out just because they are playing the hindrance, but when they play the hindrance at a time metagaming screams do the opposite).

As an example, in a Savage Worlds one-shot last night, one of the characters was Greedy but also felt guilty from an earlier betrayl (generated backstory). In the final battle, a necromancer was trying to get way (almost defeated) and only this character could stop him (in melee). The necro offered a world of riches to the PC. You could see the anguish on the player's face as she tried to decide. The guilt of the betrayl won out and the Necro was defeated. I just do not recall seeing that so quickly in most D&D games I am in (I think because the system has hindrances built in it tells the player it is OK to have flaws, whereas D&D always implies "perfect" heros - its up to the player to work it in).

 

[Janx]

sounds like part of the challenge is figuring out what they mean. That's life. Don't assume they use the same words, like roleplay to mean what you think it means.

Once you get them to clarify what they mean (like you kind of did when they talked about using skills as roleplaying), now you're getting somewhere.

Find out what they like, as THEY understand it, then present more of that. If you want them to try other stuff (like acting in character), try to bring that in different ways. Just don't expect to force it on them.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Try RCFG.

Or any other OS RPG, such as Basic Fantasy or Labyrinth Lord.

You live in Toronto. I'd be happy to print an Alpha Playtest document for you for RCFG, if you & your group are willing to playtest. You might find it changes how you play (while there is plenty there for your power-gaming friends!).


RC

 

[Nimble Goodbarrel]

1. Are they enjoying the game?
2. Are you enjoying the game?

I think they are enjoying the game. However, when we first started playing I felt the role playing was much better than it is now. Reason being that the PC's were driving the story more. Getting into trouble in town, exploring things that I never thought they would. Now they seem very content to follow the story. I tried to explain that I am not here to tell my story, I am here to help them tell theirs.

I am not having nearly as much fun. I love being able to wing it and just go with what they want to do. That is so much fun for me. I was just telling them how much easier it is to do that in 4e than ever before.

Roleplaying can mean different things. Do they roleplay some amongst the characters? They may be more comfortable with some RP between each other and let the die roll (diplomacy, bluff) handle the task with you as the DM.

They don't role play between characters. Getting them to use their characters names is like pulling teeth. If they did that I think it would be a great start and we could build off of it.

 

[Merkuri]

Getting them to use their characters names is like pulling teeth. If they did that I think it would be a great start and we could build off of it.

Well there's where you start, then!

Have them make name cards to sit in front of them on the table with their character's names on it so everyone can read. Give them small bonuses when they refer to other players using their character's names until they get used to them.

 

[aboyd]

Don't just let them roll a skill check, ask them exactly what they are doing. Social skills, of course, but with all skills. For instance, rather than 'I rolled 17 on Athletics and jump the stream', ask them exactly how they are going to do this. Hand out bonuses like they're candy at halloween to the folks that play along.

Yes, this. I like this.

That old school essay up on lulu.com talks about how in the good old days, players would have to describe what they were doing and then the DM would make up a game mechanic for it. I really liked that, and remember doing exactly that as a kid.

However, I play 3.5 edition, and all the skill checks kinda stomp all over the real talky parts. Players will just say, "I rolled 17" and leave it at that. But the DMG (for 3.5 at least, although I assume 4th has something similar) talks about how you can award circumstance bonuses for those players who really navigate the situation carefully. And so I decided to merge the old school with the new school -- we talk out whatever skill check is coming up, and those who navigate well earn a +2 or +4 circumstance bonus.

So for example, if the bard is trying to haggle over a price and simply says, "I rolled a 17 for diplomacy" then he either makes it or not. But suppose he says, "So, what's the merchant's name? Sammel? OK. I tell Sammel that I've noticed the layer of dust on his wares. I know he's not selling a lot of his merchandise. I tell him that I know he needs this sale. And hey, I'm not asking for that much off -- he'll still make more than any typical commoner makes in a year. All from a one day sale!"

For that, +2 to circumstance bonus.

If the player continues, "You know what? Let's tell Sammel that I'll also head to the two local taverns and sing a song about his business. No epic; just a good drinking song. I'll keep it simple, easy to sing along with, and funny. I'll sing it both tonight and tomorrow night. All he needs to do is grant me the discount."

For that, the player is up to a +4.

Often we'll play out the conversations. I HATE when people use weird voices and such, but I'm OK with just stepping through a conversation, maybe seeing if the player has an interesting angle.

And I award those bonuses all over the place. Checking a particular feature of the room? Search bonus. Describing how you surreptitiously eavesdropped? Listen bonus. And so on.

Also, at the end of the session, I award role playing bonuses. Did someone act within their alignment even though there were consequences? XP bonus. Did a very intelligent player follow through on a suboptimal decision because his fighter had low int/wis? Roleplay bonus. Etc.

I keep the bonuses small. They're 7th level now, and the role play bonuses are only 50 XP to 200 XP, usually. I typically award 2 per session, looking at my average over the last few games.

Maybe something similar would evoke some role play from your players...?

 

[delericho]

I DM for a group of three players. All are my longtime friends. Recently, even with the change over to 4e which I thought would breathe new life into our group I find myself coming back to the same old problem.

A change of rules system will never fix problems with the personnel at your table.

They mentioned puzzles and riddles as role playing but I disagreed again.

You're mistaken. Solving puzzles, providing it is done in-character, very much is role-playing. And, for that matter, engaging in combat may very well be role-playing, provided it is approached in-character, and not merely as a tactical puzzle to be solved in the optimum manner.

I think this comes down to a basic discomfort with role playing in our group. So I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on how I can make this more comfortable or what I could do to help my players role play a little more.

Start small. Rather than jumping straight in to the dungeon, start by giving the PCs actual motivations for their adventures (beyond simple money, if you can). Perhaps they are asked to deal with a little problem by an old friend. Perhaps a newer friend has run into trouble, and needs assisted. (This is even better if that assistance is a diplomatic matter, rather than one to be slain.)

Then build on this. Detail the town in which the PCs live, including a number of recurring NPCs, both friends and foils for the PCs. Give the town some life - there should be regular feast days, the PCs may be invited to the wedding of some of their friends/family in the town (consider: weddings are a fairly big deal in our world - how much more important would they be in a "Points of Light" setting in which life could be snuffed out at any time? And remember also, with a smaller urban population, it's quite likely that pretty much everybody will know everybody else!). Perhaps the town will vote to put up a statue honouring their local heroes?

The next step from there is to encourage the players to start directing the action. Have NPCs come to them for advice. Have some local folk encourage them to join the town council, or become involved in running the local temple. And then you move on to competing requests, and all the small-scale politics that result from that...

And so it goes. Start small, and build upwards from there.