[DM needs help] Elven Sorceror, "trance" for 4 hours, can they be on "watch" other 4?

[WonkaMania]

Hey there everyone,

My game is going to be running in a bit over an hour and a half, and I just have a question about one of the characters in my game.

Looking over the magic section about arcane spells on page 154 of the 3.0 PHB, it says that a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours (and it says for a sorceror or bard that they need 8 hours rest just like a wizard). It goes on to say

"The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If the wizard's rest is interupted, each interuption adds 1 hour tot he total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, etc... "

So, here's my questions:

First off, is elven "trance" just like sleep? As in, they are considered sleeping, and therefore can be coup de grace'd? I've been ruling it that yes "trance" is exactly like sleep (but with the "flavor" difference of you aren't sleeping, your trancing)

Second, an elven character only needs to trance for 4 hours, so a non spellcasting elf only needs 4 hours of "rest". However, the sorceror in my party needs 8 hours of rest. I've been allowing him to be "on watch" the other 4 hours because the player was kind of bullying me into it by "ok, I'm just resting, but I'm still watching".

From the paragraph above though, this would seem to indicate that the sorceror can NOT be on watch his other 4 hours (if he wants to get spells back that is), because being "on watch" requires skill use (Spot, Listen). Am I correct in this? He trances for 4 hours, but the remaining 4 hours he just sits/lays there and can NOT talk or move (because it says in the paragraph up above you must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation)

Is this correct? Thanks in advance!


~Wonka

 

[CRGreathouse]

From the paragraph above though, this would seem to indicate that the sorceror can NOT be on watch his other 4 hours (if he wants to get spells back that is), because being "on watch" requires skill use (Spot, Listen). Am I correct in this? He trances for 4 hours, but the remaining 4 hours he just sits/lays there and can NOT talk or move (because it says in the paragraph up above you must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation)

Is this correct? Thanks in advance!

I agree with you. The sorcerer can't stay on watch, which is actually pretty intense duty if you ask me. He's resting. Since he's awake, he'll be able to act if something happens (though he'll have to pay an extra hour for the interruption), but he doesn't get to make the Spot/Listen checks to notice it in the first place.

 

[Scion]

He gets just as much of a chance to notice something as other sleeping characters. Which is not zero by the way

They are in a sleep like state, but able to become fully alert in a moments notice. all well and good.

Still though, if a human is asleep would you grant them listen checks to notice things? I know I would, there would be a penalty of course, but it would still be there. Most adventurers have trained themselves to be aware of their surroundings even if they are asleep, some can even sleep with their eyes open.

To that end I would have no problem giving pc's spot and listen checks, with a penalty appropriate to the situation to each. I would even allow someone to take a feat that would allow a relatively large bonus, the ability to wake up instantly and be alert, plus a few other minor bonuses (sortof like how the endurance feat works)

I would also let the mage be on 'watch' while resting. He wouldnt be able to move around alot, mainly just looking here and there relaxing his mind. At worst I would give him a -1 to spot checks, but if I did then I would grant a +1 to listen checks. If his watch requires him to move around the outskirts of the camp constantly then no. While it can be stressful it doesnt necissarily have to be. I've been on long haul watches before, it is boring but with proper concentration you can watch while nearly sleeping and still be fully alert with any given noise or movement that could be danger. But even that doesnt have to pose alarm until needed.

 

[WonkaMania]

He gets just as much of a chance to notice something as other sleeping characters. Which is not zero by the way

Still though, if a human is asleep would you grant them listen checks to notice things? I know I would, there would be a penalty of course, but it would still be there.

Yes, Sleeping characters get the chance to make listen checks.. I can't find where it is, but they get to make them at either a -10 or -20 penalty.

I would also let the mage be on 'watch' while resting. He wouldnt be able to move around alot, mainly just looking here and there relaxing his mind. At worst I would give him a -1 to spot checks, but if I did then I would grant a +1 to listen checks.

Here's the problem, he's using a skill, which the paragraph on regaining spells says they must refrain from doing so, otherwise it's an interuption and they must sleep for an extra hour.

(I've been on military watches in the middle of the night as well, while true they aren't very stressful, you really can't "rest your mind" while doing them)

~Wonka

 

[MichaelH]

I would not allow the elven sorcerer to count the watch hours as rest hours. It requires active skill use, so no deal. However, passive use of a skill, like Listen checks to see if noise awakens him, should not interrupt the rest, although his actions after that might.

 

[shilsen]

Yes, Sleeping characters get the chance to make listen checks.. I can't find where it is, but they get to make them at either a -10 or -20 penalty.

It's a -10 penalty, and it's listed under the...wait for it...wait for it...Listen skill description

 

[Scion]

Here's the problem, he's using a skill, which the paragraph on regaining spells says they must refrain from doing so, otherwise it's an interuption and they must sleep for an extra hour.

(I've been on military watches in the middle of the night as well, while true they aren't very stressful, you really can't "rest your mind" while doing them)

~Wonka

But under that definition then you can never rest and regain spells. You are always thinking about something, you are always listening, you are always trying to keep your balance, you are always doing dozens of things. You dont have to be 'actively' listening or watching to be on watch. Humans are very well designed to pick up movement, or hear a change in ambient noise. A friend of mine used to talk about a guy they knew, he told them to never go near him while he was asleep.. One time they threw a pillow in his general direction when the guy was asleep, he kicked it out of midair back at the people who threw it and then was really upset about them waking him up. Now that guy definately had some skill! Which I think would be really cool as a class idea or feat tree. Failing that though everyone has a chance to notice things changing

I know what you mean about the military watches though, some people are naturally better at it. some are more easily trained for it. Plus over a long period of time it may eventually drive you insane. D&D is a pretty gross oversimplification of some things though, I think that this sort of thing could easily fall into those lines as 'permissable with a penalty', you could even say that doing so is possible but takes an extra hour of 'rest'. Not too shabby

 

[silentspace]

I've always played elves can be on watch while resting, with no penalties to spot and listen checks. They can't do things like make patrols or investigate strange noises though. How much does it really matter? If they're ambushed in the middle of the night, their spells are ruined either way.

 

[reiella]

I would not allow the elven sorcerer to count the watch hours as rest hours. It requires active skill use, so no deal. However, passive use of a skill, like Listen checks to see if noise awakens him, should not interrupt the rest, although his actions after that might.

However, Spot is a passive skill as well. Which is the primary difference between Spot and Search...

I personally let them spot/listen during their 'non-trance meditation', just as I let a wizard with ring of sustenance do most of the watch. It may not be supported in the rules (and judging from that blurp, it isn't), but it makes things easier, and gives some benefit to the ring of sustenance outside of "Let's play attrition with the PCs", which simply isn't my style.

 

[Darklone]

I don't let them be on watch (sitting around does not count, being on watch means checking the area all the time), but I have them awake and ready to act if something happens.

That's the reason btw why my players tend to halfelves ... fighters, rangers and rogues. They don't need so much sleep and can be on watch half of the night.