Frostmarrow
First Post
A backstory is just dandy. It's even better if the backstory can be found by the PCs as handouts. Books, letters, and poems - bring it on!
DM-only backstory in modules
You've taken it out of context. This is what I was disagreeing with: "but having a backstory that the players might not discover doesn't make a moduiile bad either." I say, yes, it does. With the context supplied again, it doesn't matter what your opinion about informing the DM is, it's irrelevant to what I was disagreeing with.
It doesn't matter whether it is or isn't arbitrary - if it appears arbitrary to the players, it may as well be arbitrary for all intents and purposes of entertaining them. If you don't care about entertaining your players, you won't care about this either I suppose.
There are adventures written where the (back)story only ever makes sense to the DM, because it's the set of conceits which makes the adventure "go" in the first place, and there's no mechanism by which to convey this history to the players. This is bad module writing, and it's seemingly quite common in back issues of Dungeon magazine for instance, but that's probably only because Dungeon publishes so many modules.
And you're conceding my point - if five players missed the plot boat and the whole point to "why is this happening, why are we doing this", then either the DM or the module probably suck. This is also bad - it leads to player apathy and removes story from the game.
Oh bollocks. There's a reason why movies bother to go "100 years earlier..." or "one week later" and present a flashback prior to the main story.
No. I'm saying that a non-obvious backstory may as well be arbitrary for all the players care, because they don't know it, and are unlikely to find it out, so for all intents and purposes of entertaining them it may as well be arbitrary. This is bad, and although not much can be done to stop bad DMs from continuing to be bad, writing this stuff into published adventures can and should be prevented...ideally...
To do otherwise is like being a playwright looking out over a sea of confused faces on the premiere of his new play, but wearing a secret smile because he knew "the backstory", so it all made sense to him. Yeah, it's that ridiculous...
Now don't get me wrong; I think that campaigns should contain secrets that the players may never discover, and can get a thrill out of unveiling for themselves....it's just that entire adventures probably shouldn't be based around backstories that the PCs know nothing about...there's a reason why villains start "monologuing", and directors complain to writers about dialogue which is "exposition", but it seems that some adventure writers and DMs could learn from both these lazy practices because some of them use the backstory as a crutch to enable not telling the story at all.
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This is backstory as a supplement to - but not a replacement for - the story. I've got no problem with that. It's when the story doesn't make sense without the backstory, and there's no chance or a reasonable chance that the players will never learn that backstory that it becomes a problem.
Enough is explained by characters like Gandalf about the history of the ring for the Lord of the Rings to make sense in and of itself - here, the history is explained to the pla-(ahem)-hobbits; in Bag End, for instance - when he throws the ring on the fire. This is different to the DM sitting on backstory information that's required for the story to make sense to the players, which is what some of the folks on this thread seem to have sidetracked into proposing.
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Anax
First Post
I don’t think anybody is proposing that.
But one thing that’s different about an RPG is that the backstory will not always be relevant... It really depends on what the players do. The backstory is, however, something that the DM should always know something about, because it provides the information needed to adapt to what the players choose to do.
I think pretty much everyone here has agreed that if an NPC’s actions seem random to the players, there’s something wrong. On the other hand, there’s a lot of leeway here: you could reveal information early (so that players can predict the NPC’s actions), in the midst of things (suddenly everything comes clear, and the players gain the ability to predict the NPC’s actions), or after the fact (the “Oh! So that’s what was going on!” moment.)
I’m not terribly fond of the revelation after the fact model for an RPG, but all of the above have their place.
But in any case, yes, it’s true that a secret explanation for what’s going on is no excuse for making it impossible for the players to predict what will happen. You have to be able to predict actions in order to have the leverage to make changes, and without the ability to change events, it’s a play, not a game.
And yes, a bad DM or a poorly designed adventure will very likely make that mistake.
But that’s not at all the same as having a backstory that’s not apparent to the players, or which is visible only in small chunks.
But one thing that’s different about an RPG is that the backstory will not always be relevant... It really depends on what the players do. The backstory is, however, something that the DM should always know something about, because it provides the information needed to adapt to what the players choose to do.
I think pretty much everyone here has agreed that if an NPC’s actions seem random to the players, there’s something wrong. On the other hand, there’s a lot of leeway here: you could reveal information early (so that players can predict the NPC’s actions), in the midst of things (suddenly everything comes clear, and the players gain the ability to predict the NPC’s actions), or after the fact (the “Oh! So that’s what was going on!” moment.)
I’m not terribly fond of the revelation after the fact model for an RPG, but all of the above have their place.
But in any case, yes, it’s true that a secret explanation for what’s going on is no excuse for making it impossible for the players to predict what will happen. You have to be able to predict actions in order to have the leverage to make changes, and without the ability to change events, it’s a play, not a game.
And yes, a bad DM or a poorly designed adventure will very likely make that mistake.
But that’s not at all the same as having a backstory that’s not apparent to the players, or which is visible only in small chunks.
Numion
First Post
This is exactly the reason why I think Castle Maure isn't that good of an adventure. It reads like a good one, and makes one want to run it, but the cool backstory isn't made easily available to players. I noticed this only during running the adventure. But that's the stuff for the thread I made about it.
The truth is, many other Dungeon magazine adventures are like that. Adventures just don't always make sense from the players PoV - you can always fault the DM for that, but it isn't that constructive, as you can also write adventures where the background is ingrained into the plot, and is (eventually) made known to the PCs.
I've run a lot of Dungeon adventures, and sometimes I've used some cheap tricks because my players have been totally lost as to why they had to romp through another dungeon, like having the BBEG monologue during a cinematic break, before the final fight. That's not an elegant solution, IMO.
A workable solution is usually the so-called handouts of diaries or old tomes. Players seem to like those very much, ever since my group first saw them in WFRPs Enemy Within Campaign (which had good and bad (but mostly good) examples of campaign background information relaying to PCs).
The truth is, many other Dungeon magazine adventures are like that. Adventures just don't always make sense from the players PoV - you can always fault the DM for that, but it isn't that constructive, as you can also write adventures where the background is ingrained into the plot, and is (eventually) made known to the PCs.
I've run a lot of Dungeon adventures, and sometimes I've used some cheap tricks because my players have been totally lost as to why they had to romp through another dungeon, like having the BBEG monologue during a cinematic break, before the final fight. That's not an elegant solution, IMO.
A workable solution is usually the so-called handouts of diaries or old tomes. Players seem to like those very much, ever since my group first saw them in WFRPs Enemy Within Campaign (which had good and bad (but mostly good) examples of campaign background information relaying to PCs).
The old Far Corners of the World feature on Wizards.com introduced the following magic item:
Headband of Lore: Adventurers, especially those who intend to explore lost cities, covet headbands of lore. The wearer of a headband of lore gains a +5 competence bonus on all Knowledge checks (including bardic knowledge checks). The wearer must have at least one rank in the Knowledge skill she's using to take advantage of this bonus. Once a day, the wearer can use an analyze dweomer spell. Also once per day, the wearer can perform a legend lore on an item or site by studying it for 1 minute.
Moderate divination; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, identify, legend lore; Price 50,000 gp.
Eventually I intend to incorporate this item into my campaign. My thinking is that it is actually an item sacred to the God of Knowledge and Magic, and that in some sense gives the wearer access to his divine library. The wearer will occasionally, with a high enough knowledge or bardic knowledge check, have access to information that she has no way of knowing as she catches a glimpse of the god's vast storehouse of knowledge. This will allow me to incorporate backstory and additional information that the party really has no way of accessing. Also, I'll get to play around with the question, "What are the consequences of sneaking a peak at a god's library?"
Morrow
Headband of Lore: Adventurers, especially those who intend to explore lost cities, covet headbands of lore. The wearer of a headband of lore gains a +5 competence bonus on all Knowledge checks (including bardic knowledge checks). The wearer must have at least one rank in the Knowledge skill she's using to take advantage of this bonus. Once a day, the wearer can use an analyze dweomer spell. Also once per day, the wearer can perform a legend lore on an item or site by studying it for 1 minute.
Moderate divination; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, identify, legend lore; Price 50,000 gp.
Eventually I intend to incorporate this item into my campaign. My thinking is that it is actually an item sacred to the God of Knowledge and Magic, and that in some sense gives the wearer access to his divine library. The wearer will occasionally, with a high enough knowledge or bardic knowledge check, have access to information that she has no way of knowing as she catches a glimpse of the god's vast storehouse of knowledge. This will allow me to incorporate backstory and additional information that the party really has no way of accessing. Also, I'll get to play around with the question, "What are the consequences of sneaking a peak at a god's library?"
Morrow
Psion
Adventurer
Well, there are two sides to this coin AFAIAC.
I like DM background that lets them tell the story, and gives them a starting point to extrapolate from and make logical decisions from.
I don't, on the other hand, like having to dig through mounds of meaningless material from frustrated authors in order to get to salient points about the adventures. I think that some adventure writers try to write adventures like novels when they should be writing them more like reports: well organized so as to highlight important points.
I like DM background that lets them tell the story, and gives them a starting point to extrapolate from and make logical decisions from.
I don't, on the other hand, like having to dig through mounds of meaningless material from frustrated authors in order to get to salient points about the adventures. I think that some adventure writers try to write adventures like novels when they should be writing them more like reports: well organized so as to highlight important points.
lukelightning
First Post
Hear hear! "The monster in this room used to survive on human sacrifices brought to it, but now scavanges what it can" is fine.
"The monster in this room, named B'Loney by Anon Ymous, its now deceased owner, once feasted upon human sacrifices of red-haired virginal men over the age of 40 who were ritually spanked first. The sacrifices were brought every second Monday except on a full moon when pizza was ordered instead...." is probably pointless. Unless one of the characters happens to be a red-haired virginal man over the age of 40.
"The monster in this room, named B'Loney by Anon Ymous, its now deceased owner, once feasted upon human sacrifices of red-haired virginal men over the age of 40 who were ritually spanked first. The sacrifices were brought every second Monday except on a full moon when pizza was ordered instead...." is probably pointless. Unless one of the characters happens to be a red-haired virginal man over the age of 40.
MerricB said:
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