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D&D 5E DM purposely gimping my Warlock

Chocolategravy

First Post
I want to run a game that is based on very slow healing... it would be "short rests" set to 8hrs no more then 1 a day, and long rests set to 4-10 days (avreg 1 week) no more then once per month. I would also set a lot of other restrictions... would anyone think that was unfair?
Changing the long rest time will impact spells. 10 days would be the longest you'd push it without having to considering what effect that is going to have on things like Raise Dead and Reincarnate. With 4-10 days, going beyond 1 day might have an effect on a number of things like curses that could have been expected to be cured within a day now maybe not getting cured for 10. As it is, if your PC's are smart they're going to take a long rest then wait 10 days before adventuring in order to be able to immediately long rest again. Having mechanics that promote that sort of metagaming isn't ideal.
 

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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I want to run a game that is based on very slow healing... it would be "short rests" set to 8hrs no more then 1 a day, and long rests set to 4-10 days (avreg 1 week) no more then once per month.

I would also set a lot of other restrictions... would anyone think that was unfair?

I don't think those restrictions would be unfair, as long as those were spelled out BEFORE the game and not in the middle of the game, or maybe during character creation a simple "hey, you might want to rethink the warlock thing, I'm going to houserule short rests and you might not like it". In the same way that if soemone else was picking a sorcerer and chose spells needing components just to be told mid game " by the way you startef naked, no staff for dancing lights and no diamond for chromatic orb, so you can't cast any spell". Those rules that affect characters must be spelled out before the game instead of introduced at random.

It would be unfair for me to complain about that if I agreed to play in your game knowing about your restrictions in advance (kinda sounds like Harnmaster). It would also be unfair for me to complain if I ignored you informing me of your restrictions. It would be unfair for you to spring those restrictions on the players after play had started.

Can you elaborate? How would one not deal with class/rules/story elements? How did the DM in this case not deal with class/rules/story elements?

I posit that DMs imposing such conditions deal with class/rules/story elements by treating the impacts to particular characters as acceptable in the context of the story, and I would venture that the DM in this case may have recognized those impacts and considered them acceptable.

I would also put forth the notion that if anyone "couldn't deal" in this situation, it was the OP.
Maybe the DM foresaw the consequences beyond just healing, but he sure didn't do anything to reassure the player of it. His only answer was "if you don't like it reroll/ if you care you must be a munchkin". However that is giving him the benefit of the doubt, the most simple supposition is he didn't foresee it and didn't care.
 

Changing the long rest time will impact spells. 10 days would be the longest you'd push it without having to considering what effect that is going to have on things like Raise Dead and Reincarnate. With 4-10 days, going beyond 1 day might have an effect on a number of things like curses that could have been expected to be cured within a day now maybe not getting cured for 10. As it is, if your PC's are smart they're going to take a long rest then wait 10 days before adventuring in order to be able to immediately long rest again. Having mechanics that promote that sort of metagaming isn't ideal.
the idea would be that adventure 'days' would be spread out over the month less going on more time between. the idea would be to make the whole world more 'dangerous' wounds last longer, and each and every effect could spiral out of control. It would be spelled out for the NPCs and Monsters as well, and NPC spell casters would be very rare, and healers almost unheard of. (so no restrictions on PCs, they would be part of that rare few if they take the options)
 

Iosue

Legend
After reading the whole thread, here are my 2 yen worth of conclusions.


  • Limiting short rests to 2 a day, no less than 8 hours apart, seems very much in keeping with the Ravenloft aesthetic.
  • Springing this on the player's after they get to Ravenloft also seems entirely kosher. Other campaign settings, I'd say no, but part of the Ravenloft aesthetic is the, "Where are we? What happened? Why aren't things working like they should?"
  • Airing disagreement with a DM on multiple forums is, general, bad form.
  • Airing disagreement with a DM on multiple forums and then throwing that at the DM is worse form.
  • Publicly posting a disagreement from a private forum is the worst form.
  • The trust necessary for fun play here seems irreparably broken; I suggest a clean break.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Wasn't this a Ravenloft game? The same Ravenloft that in prior editions had setting rules that weakened Turn Undead and many divine spells for Clerics and Paladins, and then hit Paladins with the nerf hammer of doom by weakening their Detect Evil, disease immunity, fear immunity, had their special mount automatically become evil, and made them detectable by darklords from a mile away? If you wanted to play a paladin it would be borked, and you might want to consider playing a fighter interested in religion instead.

I can understand reservations about having a character who draws power from dark source in a setting where the world is made of evil and fear. Opening yourself to that connection would be like trying to take a small sip of water by standing under Niagara Falls. Every use of their powers would have a chance of moving the character along the path of corruption, resulting in a character that either have to be incredibly conservative about using their powers at all, or would rapidly be corrupted to the point of being an NPC.

There are times when a character concept just doesn't fit the campaign setting. A half-dragon with a fire breath is going to have a hard time in a Spelljammer game based on spending most of your time in the phlogiston, and an aquatic elf is going to have a hard time in an Al Qadim game set in the desert, but neither would be flat out prohibited due to technology or cultural restrictions.

Funny you should mention that.

I was working on my own Ravenloft Placeholder rules, which took into account the restrictions of editions past. In doing so, I noticed a trend in Ravenloft rules: as the editions got higher, they somehow felt obligated to pile on more-and-more restrictions to each class when they reprinted the rules. If one goes back to the original box sets (either the black or red), there were few direct nerfs and most were situational (IE: most immunities fail vs a dark lord or domain ability). Paladin's lost disease immunity, clerics and paladin's turned at -2 levels, bards halved their "know stuff" percentile, and animal companions couldn't challenge a lord, but that was it. Spells were nerfed (or in some evil cases, buffed) but you could avoid that by not casting those spells. Both the priest and wizard spell list were full of non-affected spells. Even then, most fell into a few hard rules (no easy escapes from RL, no plot-ruining divinations, no summons, and weakened anti-undead spells).

Thing is, come about Domains of Dread, the tone changed. The idea was that PCs needed more "gimping" to make the game feel deadlier. Whereas before only a few classes got some abilities restricted, ALL classes got whacked with the nerfstick. In some cases, a simple swap was made (fighters lost their followers, but gained a weak ability to inspire others), or the classic nerf was strengthened (clerics and turn undead) and in some cases (bard, druid, paladin) the class was simply banned for natives. Unfortunately, Arhaus dialed this up to 11 with the d20 Ravenloft: classes got restrictions so heinous as to render them unplayable (barbarians making power checks whenever they rage: what's the point of being one?) and the game took less of the "stranger in a strange land" vibe of earlier boxes and reduced it to a mechanical bull-ride: last as long as you can.

That said, even if the DM here was a fan of the 3.5 Ravenloft Player's Handbook (also known as the "Make a Power Check every level" edition) gimping a bunch of classes with the short-rest restriction is just... inelegant. There is no thematic reason, and Ravenloft never restricted rest before (well, one could draw that out of the psionic PSP rules, I guess). Sounds more like a "I don't like this new rule, therefore I'm going to do all I can to make it unusable".

FWIW, "2 short rests per day, with at least 8 hours between them" is redundant, assuming you take at least one long rest each 24 hours. Your long rest is 8 hours, leaving 16 other hours in the day. If there has to be at least 8 hours between short rests, that only leaves 2 possible before the next long rest comes up.

The math still doesn't add up to two serviceable rests. RL days are 24 hours.

0:00 (Midnight) to 8:00: Long rest (8 hrs)
8:01 to 10:00: three hours of adventure
10:01 to 12:00 short rest
12:01 to 19:00 eight hours of adventure (no rests)
19:01 to 20:00 short rest
20:01 to 23:59 three hours of adventure
0:00 new day, time for bed.

This assumes a short rest two hours after the long rest and two hours before; if you use your short rest five hours after your long rest, you cannot short rest before you can use your long rest. Therefore, while you could (in theory) fit in two short rests if you use your first within the first four hours of the day, and only if you want your second rest before bed.

Perhaps the DM doesn't want to make resting as difficult as what the DMG may offer as alternate resting rules for grittier games (short rest is 8 hours once per day, long rest is weeklong rest in town as has been discussed in other threads.)

Ironically, that would make his character STRONGER than the wizard or cleric; 1 spell slot refreshed daily vs. 2 for a whole week (or more)?

And lets not kid ourselves here. Any one of us could run a Ravenloft game with 0 rules changes and still run it 'Gritty' and 'dangerous' and 'gothic'. House rules like this are a lazy/ignorant DMs tool.

Ravenloft still requires some house-ruling, but this is a ham-handed way to keeping PCs meek.
 
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Remathilis

Legend
After reading the whole thread, here are my 2 yen worth of conclusions.

  • Limiting short rests to 2 a day, no less than 8 hours apart, seems very much in keeping with the Ravenloft aesthetic.
  • Springing this on the player's after they get to Ravenloft also seems entirely kosher. Other campaign settings, I'd say no, but part of the Ravenloft aesthetic is the, "Where are we? What happened? Why aren't things working like they should?"

Disagree on both counts. This is why I love Ravenloft, but I hate to play with most Ravenloft DMs. They hold to the notion that unless your PC isn't naked, afraid, feeble, and covered in blood, you're somehow too powerful. They forget that Ravenloft is Gothic Heroic Fantasy mostly by forgetting the "Heroic" part. And while there seems to be some fun in the initial "I don't know how my spells work" element, any native WOULD know how their magic works (says so in the book). More importantly, if I have a class built around short rests, I'd like to know if short rests are per RAW or by DM house rule BEFORE I put the time into making a character.

  • Airing disagreement with a DM on multiple forums is, general, bad form.
  • Airing disagreement with a DM on multiple forums and then throwing that at the DM is worse form.
  • Publicly posting a disagreement from a private forum is the worst form.
  • The trust necessary for fun play here seems irreparably broken; I suggest a clean break.

This is very true, but I think he wanted to proof he wasn't insane for assuming that springing a game-changing house-rule mid-session isn't the definition of poor DMing. I don't think he found the reassurance he was seeking.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
The lapse of time is the DMs choice. It should be 1 hour as RAW, unless otherwise stated and agreed upon prior to game launch. That didnt happen here to our knowledge.

My understanding is this is the first session we're talking about, so the first real opportunity the DM had to talk about the house rules. The DM first announced in the general description on Roll20 "this will be a much tougher campaign than you're used to, due to the nature of Ravenloft, etc..." or some such thing, and when people started to talk about their characters when first joining the game, the details about the nature of that "much harder" came out. It's not like they are 20 sessions into the campaign and suddenly this new house rule was sprung on them - they're all just starting.
 


MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
My understanding is this is the first session we're talking about, so the first real opportunity the DM had to talk about the house rules. The DM first announced in the general description on Roll20 "this will be a much tougher campaign than you're used to, due to the nature of Ravenloft, etc..." or some such thing, and when people started to talk about their characters when first joining the game, the details about the nature of that "much harder" came out. It's not like they are 20 sessions into the campaign and suddenly this new house rule was sprung on them - they're all just starting.

The way roll20 and rpol work allows for plenty of opportunities to discuss houserules in advance, in other situations this that could be a good reason, but in this case it isn't. And even then the moment to talk about it is at the beginning of the session, not in the middle of it.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
The way roll20 and rpol work allows for plenty of opportunities to discuss houserules in advance, in other situations this that could be a good reason, but in this case it isn't. And even then the moment to talk about it is at the beginning of the session, not in the middle of it.

Others have explained why it would make sense to go in not knowing the specifics, for Ravenloft, and then explain once you arrive in the Ravenloft setting. In addition...where are you getting "in the middle of it" from? Seems like it was early in the game, not the middle.
 

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