DM vs. PC's Question

[thedungeondelver]

Hell this goes all the way back to at least AD&D; and even if it wasn't written out in the rules before it was at least implicit. If the players, for example, are using flaming oil, then intelligent monsters will get their hands on some and reciprocate! Further, witch-doctors (basically cleric/magic-users who could cast certain 4th level spells) should be doing unto the players as well.

You're cheating your players if you aren't keeping them on their toes at all times.

 

[vikingmonkey]

As I see it, the difference is in the DM's motivation. If you're thinking "this would be a fun and interesting challenge..." then (almost) anything's fine. If you're thinking "right, well, whatever you can do I can do better..." or "that'll teach 'em..." or similar, then (almost) nothing is.

I was kinda thinking along those lines, but something just kept nagging at me that since I know more rules than him/them that what I might come up with might not be fair. The way I see it, Monkey Grip is a potentially game breaking feat, if not handled correctly. I have no problem with how it affects me or my NPC's, what I truly worry about is how it affects the other players. When they see him whipping out 3d6 worth of damage, they would understandably be a bit miffed. So it's not so much that I'm wanting to "punish" him for taking the feat, it's that he's "stepped up" his game, and I have to step mine up proportionately, so that the game doesn't become all the other PC's just hanging back waiting for Monkey Grip to clear the room.

 

[Ibram]

I've always felt that the tactics and abilities players use are fair game for me to use as well. Though I do dislike using the same tactics every session. As a player building a character I have far more time to refien characters then I do as a DM, and so I look to PCs for good class-race-feat combinations. If a player comes up with something very powerfull then I'll be sure to remember it, and bring it back as an opponent at some point in the future.

also, just as a side bar... I very much dislike the Monkey Grip feat, and do NOT allow its use in my games.

 

[Crothian]

Where is the line drawn between challenging your players and engaging in a pissing contest with them?

It is all in the DM's intnet. If you set up an encounter to challenge them then it's okay. But if you set out to enter a pissing match it is not okay. There is nothing a PC can do a DM cannot not out do, so there is no reason to do so.

 

[delericho]

The way I see it, Monkey Grip is a potentially game breaking feat, if not handled correctly. I have no problem with how it affects me or my NPC's, what I truly worry about is how it affects the other players.

Ah. Well, in that case I would suggest dealing with the real issue, rather than worrying about challenging the PC.

The key question is: is Monkey Grip breaking your game? If so, I would suggest simply banning the feat, and removing the problem. If it isn't, but you feel it's a bit too powerful, adjust the feat, perhaps by changing it to a -3 penalty on attack rolls, or higher.

In truth, though, I suspect you'll find it's actually not that much better than any other feat the player could have chosen. What level are the characters?

When they see him whipping out 3d6 worth of damage, they would understandably be a bit miffed.

That's just an increase of 3.5 points of damage (on average), for a 10% reduction in the chance to hit. In fact, it's slightly less beneficial than just using Power Attack 2 on every attack.

So it's not so much that I'm wanting to "punish" him for taking the feat, it's that he's "stepped up" his game, and I have to step mine up proportionately, so that the game doesn't become all the other PC's just hanging back waiting for Monkey Grip to clear the room.

That's fair motivation. I also suggest not worrying about it - it sounds like you're doing fine. Keeping PCs challenged is always a good thing.

 

[vikingmonkey]

Ah. Well, in that case I would suggest dealing with the real issue, rather than worrying about challenging the PC.

The key question is: is Monkey Grip breaking your game? If so, I would suggest simply banning the feat, and removing the problem. If it isn't, but you feel it's a bit too powerful, adjust the feat, perhaps by changing it to a -3 penalty on attack rolls, or higher.

In truth, though, I suspect you'll find it's actually not that much better than any other feat the player could have chosen. What level are the characters?

That's fair motivation. I also suggest not worrying about it - it sounds like you're doing fine. Keeping PCs challenged is always a good thing.

Thanks for the kind words delricho. I'm not a fan of banning feats (or anything for that matter) because they might "break" my game. I'm of the opinion that the word "broken" is applied to far too many things (that is my experience and the gamers I hang out with - one is so jaded, it's a shame...). I trust in the R&D department to play test the heck outta things. Like another poster said, there's nothing the players can do that I can't out-do.

Really it's a matter of the flavor of the game and the power level we're all comfortable with. Generally, I tend towards low-power games, but my players are all for high-power, kick-butt campaigns so i try to meet them in the middle. But adjusting the feat sounds like a good idea, if things go sour, but I'll leave it alone and see how it fares.

The PC's are all 1-2 level right now - we just started.

 

[Darklone]

That's the approach I like, since it keeps things interesting for me as a DM too. I run a game (see sig) which is primarily urban and where the NPCs are usually significantly lower level than the PCs, but even within that restriction it's possible to have a whole lot of variation.

I love humanocentric campaigns. So: No monster verisimilitude but NPC verisimilitude.

And yes, it's much more fun for the rulesmonkey DM too.

Did you ever bash your groups "Me kill all" barbarian level 5 with a human warrior NPC level 6 without magic equipment ?

Do you mean halflings who eat other halflings? If they ate humans, dwarves, elves, etc. then it wouldn't be cannibalism - just gluttony

Well, they don't mind

I love to have an evil halfling cannibal tribe with filed and sharpened teeth in the city sewers. You haven't lived as a DM if you didn't push your 9 PC group level 4-6 to the edge of a TPK with 7 ftr1/rog1, a ftr2/rog3 leader and a wiz3

Weapon Finesse and that halfling bonus to hit with tumble and flank really makes my day.

Uhuuuum. Back on topic.

I don't think Monkey Grip is too bad. I think Uncanny Blow is better. Much better. Especially allowing half-ogres.

 

[frankthedm]

The PC's are all 1-2 level right now - we just started.

Monkey grip is a smidge strong at those levels since it lets you 'power attack' more than you normally could, but after that, the feat is second banana to the 2 for 1 power attack output with a 2 handed weapon. The only other time Monkey grip lets you get ahead of the damage curve is if the attacker was dumping the entire 'to hit' into power attacka nd hoping for the '20'.

Now one balancing factor is a large weapon should take a long time to craft rather than be laying around in medium creature's storefronts, costing additional rent in the inn room if the party just 'burns time'.

Monsters use the same feats as Players, an orc warrior or ogre barbarian has the same amount of access to splat feats that you players do.

If I send a, for example, troll with the Monkey Grip feat wielding some massive weapon, am i challenging him or am I just saying "Neener neener, look what I can do!"?

You are showing him that at least one troll in the game setting agrees with him that Monkey grip is a worthwhile feat. No pissing contest involved, as new feats are introduced to your game, it is your responsibility to make sure NPC and monsters have feats that compliment their abilities and capabilities. Players update their sheets, you update your monster pallete.

Examples:

Wotc severely weakened Improved Overrun with the errata issued soon after 3.5’s release; it is only fair to pick a new feat as a giant default. Brutal Throw [complete adventurer] is a good choice, though monkey grip is fun too.

Improved toughness is much better for most monsters that have toughness normally, If you allow the “Improved toughness” feat into your game, the toughness feat on most monsters should be switched over to that.

 

[billd91]

It's not really a pissing match until you do your Dance of Mockery over their dead character sheets.

 

[Chupacabra]

It just goes to show why Monkey Grip is such a crummy munchkin-esque feat. For what its worth our game group has house-ruled it out of existence.

It's 100% fair game to sic a baddie using that same feat on the party. Just don't do it repeatedly. Otherwise whats good for the goose is good for the gander.