DMG Treasure and Player Arguments

[AeroDm]

Within our group a running argument exists on what the DMG means when they list treasure. The bulk of the discussion falls on whether or not expendables are intended to be included as treasure, and if so, how does that play into the table.

A sidebar explains that the average values of treasure are slightly higher than the listed character amount which is to be used for food, potions, scrolls, and other things spent in a dungeon. However, the listed amounts by 3rd level is akin to 600 gp... and most groups would encounter expendable well in excess of that.

So the question is simple: do you include expendables in PC wealth levels?

 

[dvvega]

Of course you do.

An encounter of appropriate level should cause an expense of 20% resources by the party. Expendable items are part of that resource.

Now it's not very clear as to what happens after they have expended it. Do you count it until they've used it and then they have some "empty" money levels to regain?

Or do they just count as a resource that was used?

Personally I think the latter.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I know I do. I keep the percentage at 25% though. My campaign is very arcane magic intensive and just about anyone can use 0th or 1st level Arcane spells with the porper background and expenditure of a feat.Of cource all 1st level characters in my campaign get an extra feat at character creation. Anyway, expendabvle items are just as usable by the monsters as they are by the characters. Any monster with an average (by human standards) intelligence that have the ability to distinguish what is magical from what isnt should be able to use a magic item.

 

[dcollins]

You may need to be a bit clearer as to exactly what you're asking. I'll try to restate it, see if you agree. You're looking at the "Character Wealth by Level" table. Your question is: does this show (a) the gross wealth of the PC (the sum of everything the PC ever owned in his life), or (b) the net wealth of the PC (the sum of all the stuff the PC owns right now)?

The answer is (b), it's intended as an estimate of what a PC at that level owns "right now". It only makes sense this way, granted what the table is for -- namely, statting out a high-level PC from scratch, and determining what they should appear in-game with. You shouldn't have to take this number and then subtract expendables before you get to make your new 10th-level PC, for example.

Consider a party at 2nd level. According to "Treasure Values per Encounter", each 1st level encounter should have earned 300 gp, and they should have had 13.33 of those. 13.33 x 300 / 4 (PCs) = 1,000 gp. That's a bit more than the 900 gp for a 2nd level PC on the "Character Wealth by Level Table". So it assumes that about 10% of the wealth they did find was expended or destroyed. Perhaps in your game you're finding this to be a different percentage in practice.

Short answer: The "Treasure" and "Treasure Values per Encounter" tables do include all items of value, including any future-expendable items. The "Character Wealth by Level" table has already discounted any previously-expended items.

 

[Lawmage]

Yeah, don't get too wrapped up about the character wealth levels. As someone else pointed out, that is a rough gauge of what a PC should have available to him or her at a given level. It is most useful when starting a new character at an advanced level. It is also useful when you want to create an NPC with resources commensurate with those of the PC's. And finally, it is useful as a sort of "snapshot" of where the PC's should be. Personally, when I run a game, I periodically assess the PC wealth levels (every two or three sessions) and get a feel for where they rank in comparison to the game's assumed "standard" PC. If they have greater than expected wealth levels, then I tweak some encounters to require greater than expected expenditures of resources. Likewise, I will have them encounter more "down at the heels" opponents who do not boost their wealth levels any further. If my assessment shows that the PC's are lacking in resources, then I modify encounters to require less expenditure and potentially provide a greater return on the "investment" of those resources consumed. In short, the PC wealth levels are a guideline or a tool in helping you manage the campaign and avoiding the older AD&D results where a pary had almost limitless resources by the time they hit mid levels. Expendable resources are just that, they are expendables....They are the resources the party consumes when they encounter opposition. If you fail to include on hand, but expendable, resources you are going to have an inappropriately low estimation of the party's actual combat prowess.