DMG2 & PHB2 - are they worth it!

[Kid Socrates]

I picked up DMG2 over the summer, and PHB2 last week. I adore PHB2. It is one of the best books I've bought all year, has a lot of great ideas, and fills in a lot of gaps in the first PHB. DMG2 I've gotten less use out of, but I still think I'll be a better GM after reading through it, and I don't think I've given it enough of a chance.

I think they're both worthy purchases, but PHB2 ranks higher for me.

 

[awayfarer]

Merkuri and I have both. Personally I like the PHB2. I don't really have much of an opinion on the DMG2 simply because I'm not a DM. Looks nifty but I don't have any basis for judging whats inside it.

 

[KB9JMQ]

The PHB2 was tied with the Spell Compendium for best buys I made this year.
I am glad I got the DMG2 but I feel it is better for my wife (a newish DM) than myself.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

PHB2, IMHO, is AWESOME. Fills a lot of gaps (especially in the "high-level fighter-type feats" area), has some cool spells (chanelling spells rawk) and so on. I also love the classes presented in it.

DMG2 is also very cool, but more geared towards a starting DM. It still has some stuff that I find useful in it, however.

I'd recommend both, but I'd recommend the PHB2 over the DMG2.

 

[ivocaliban]

I found "Stormwrack" to be quite good for undersea adventures, but rather weak above the surface. I'm sure there exist third-party supplements that do this better, but again I don't know what they are. "Stormwrack" may or may not be a really good complement to one of those books, though.

Agreed. I'd recommend Seas of Blood: Fantasy on the High Seas (Mongoose), Broadsides! (Living Imagination), or Seafarer's Handbook (Fantasy Flight). Each of these offers a version of naval combat and all handle the issue more thoroughly than Stormwrack (which is still a good book, it just isn't strong in that area). The first two are 3.0e (not sure about the latter), but I don't think this presents much of a problem.

 

[Psion]

Hi all

Is it worth purchasing the DMG2 or/and PHB2? I've paged through them and wasn't inspired. I don't want classes or PrC, they're borring material for a DM, just more paperwork.

PHBII's classes are pretty annoying, but the feat selection fleshes out the fighter well and the spells are imaginative and fresh. There are also some straightforward and sensible characterization guidelines. If you don't find your game in need of that sort of material, it may not be for you. But for what it is -- classes excepted -- it's pretty good.

DMG II, I've cited my takes on many times. I may as well repeat my contrast between DMGII and Green Ronin's Advanced Game Master's Guide:

Between the AGMG and DMGII, I think I prefer the AGMG. If you are a modest to intermediate GM, the DMGII probably has more for you to "take it to the next level". The AGMG has a bit of the same style of advice, but if you have already read Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering (which overlaps a bit with the first chapter of DMGII), you might find the perspective of AGMG's advice fresher. The AGMG is a bit more about experimenting and expanding on your gaming experience and has more pure utility material and variants that will be of more use to more advanced GMs.

Here's a recounting of the content of both books and how useful I personally consider them to be (make your own judgments, natch.):

DMG II Useful

1. Play styles and player traits (though it will be old hat if you have Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering)
2. Other GM advice
3. Archetypal Locations (love this sort of stuff)
4. Political plot hooks & courts (though some of this is old hat)
5. City and town plot hooks
6. 100 instant NPC agendas
7. Magic events (but R&R's ritual system fills this niche for me pretty well)
8. Saltmarsh (well done and useful)
9. Contacts (sort of)
10. NPC unique abilities (sometimes the D&D system can make things a little too predictable.)
11. Business rules
12. Designing prestige classes (we've seen it before, but IMO it's essential)
13. Signature traits
14. Bonded magic items
15. Magic locations (iffy - not sure if I'd use it. Too dependant upon PC interest.)
16. Synergy abilities - just barely said to myself "I wish there was something like this." That's usually a good sign
17. Magic Item Templates (iffy, but used right can have interesting flavor)

DMG II Not so useful

1. Extra traps (sorry, dull and I already own Song & Silence and Traps & Treachery I&II. Book of Challenges is much better IMO.)
2. Miniatures & Battle Grid Notes
3. Encounter Tables
4. Campaign Building (unless you are really a basic GM)
5. Town minor NPCs & establishments
6. Modeling law and justice (at one time I would have dug this; I have no time for this level of emulation before, and I certainly don't keep the last 100 years worth of transitions for every city.)
7. Complex NPCs (one or two might be useful. They need the DMG 3.0 ready to run stock NPCs back; Ultimate NPCs also fills this niche much better.)
8. Mentor/apprentice rules - interesting idea, not compelling enough.
9. PC Organizations - don't think I needed rules or guideance here
10. Guilds - likewise.
11. Teamwork (blah)
12. Artifacts (again, old hat)

AGMG Useful

1. Sensitive Subjects - too many GMs are NOT sensitive to their player's, um, sensitivities.
2. Knowing your group / play style - similar to DMG II, but might be fresher perspective if you have read Robin's Laws before.
3. Combat rules variants - esp. class dodge bonus
4. Speeding play
5. Hex based movement - my preference for outdoors (iffy, though, cause it's old hat)
6. Magic rules - esp metamagic points and self limited spells.
7. Preparing adventures
8. 40 basic plots/40 fight scenses/100 urban details / 100 wilderness details
9. Simplified NPCs
10. 40 campaign themes
11. Cosmology choices
12. Tweaking campaign rules (feats/bonus points)
13. Designing feats & PRCs
14. PC power level variants
15. Ability score generation variants
16. Training variants
17. Innate abilities - AT LAST! Lots of great ways to reward players without magical bling.
18. Levin (power component rules done justice, and eschewing the permanent "butcher shop" mentality.)
19. Sovereign materials - appeal to the munchkin in me
20. New special qualities - farms out those nifty abilities formerly locked up in special weapons.
21. Inconveninces
22. Mystic Locales & Holy sites
23. Initiative cards (though I already use these)

AGMG Not so useful

1. World Design - old hat, for the most part
2. Play environment - old hat
3. Fortune points - sorry, AFAIAC, action points are the standard
4. Designing antagonists and allies (might be useful for newer GMs)
5. APM NPCs (which I don't use any of except eldritch weaver)
6. Character backgrounds (would never use these)
7. Calendars and events (too simple, wouldn't use)
8. Advancement options (none struck my fancy)
9. Item characteristics

 

[Mercule]

DMG2 is iffy. When I first picked it up and read it, I was enthused. But, in actual practice, I've probably used five pages of the book. Even those were mostly on-off things like a new trap or two. We have a pretty map-intensive game (show, don't tell), so the new icons have come in handy, too. There are a few things that I'd like to get to, but doubt I ever actually will.

PHB2 is much better, but still hasn't enthused my group. Basically, the feats are the only things that people are interested in -- they complement the PHB very well if you plan to run a campaign above 10th level and are some of the best in print. Otherwise, there are a few mechanical bits that are interesting, but far from critical.

It really depends on what you want. If want few sourcebooks in your game, I'd use the PHB instead of the Complete books to pad out PC attributes. When you add in all the Complete books and things like the Races series, Heroes of XXX, etc. then it gets lost in the shuffle.

 

[werk]

Worth having, but not worth the price IMO.

I'm not a cheap a$$ cry baby either, I don't mind spending money on my toys, I'm just saying for the amount of really good, useable material is very limited.

.02

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Personally I use the system from the D&D Rules Cyclopedia for that (with additional material that Bruce Heard published in his Voyage of the Princess Ark and Known World Almanac columns in Dragon Magazine). Works great.

Incidentally, a spreadsheet with that material can be found online - I think there is a Mystara site out there that hosts it.

 

[Garnfellow]

DMG2 is iffy. When I first picked it up and read it, I was enthused. But, in actual practice, I've probably used five pages of the book. Even those were mostly on-off things like a new trap or two. We have a pretty map-intensive game (show, don't tell), so the new icons have come in handy, too. There are a few things that I'd like to get to, but doubt I ever actually will.

I've had a similar experience -- I really liked the DMGII at first blush, but really haven't used it much for anything other than the mob template. The DM advice section is quite good, but doesn't cover much that isn't covered in Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastery. The sample town of Saltmash could be very useful, but I just haven't had much need for a generic town in the last 1-1/2 years.

I was pretty underwhelmed by the new magic rules -- I thought Green Ronin's Advanced Gamemaster's Guide was much stronger here.