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DND 4E Is different! (Why is that bad?)

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Belphanior

First Post
To people who prefer 3E to 4E, 4E is change for the sake of change, because we find the changes to be either pointless or worse overall

But that isn't what "change for the sake of change" means. That's just a change you (the generic you) happen to disagree with. All the mechanics that are different, all the names that were changed, the new cosmology, they were all done for reasons. I'm aware of those reasons because I've read the preview books and dragon articles about the subject.

See, this is precisely why I brought up this question. I see this buzzphrase thrown around a lot, and it appears to me it's simply a codeword for "I don't like it". And you have only confirmed it for me.


But the OP was asking why 4E being different is bad. I thought that meant he wanted to know...why it's bad. If you don't think the differences are bad (you like 4E), how much are you going to contribute in response beyond "It's not bad."?

Do you really think that's what I said? "It's not bad"?

No, I'm asking you a question to elaborate on a statement of yours. There is no value judgment in that. Whether or not 4e is good or bad is entirely subjective, I have no reason to argue with anybody over it. But I do have reason to argue with somebody when he or she says something that I feel to be untrue.


Others have listed some things they find to be change for no good reason, I could make up my whole list, but I don't really feel like it. All of it would just end up being a subset of "change for the sake of change."

I think this shows a massive misunderstanding of what "change for the sake of change" actually means. Just like Mustrum_Ridcully I can think of many changes that were made, as well as the reasons why they were done. Whether or not a given person agrees with the reasons is not relevant for determining if it's done for the sake of change. Something that was done for reasons of clarity or gamebalance were done for those purposes, no matter how much people might disagree.
 

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Jack99

Adventurer
You can try every poll on here that's every mentioned it (you got a year of them). You can also look at 3.5 alt systems like pathfinder which have garnered some 80k in downloads and basae that against estimated rpg tabletop players of somewhere between 500k.

Link to either of those two numbers please. Because they seem to have little basis in reality.
 

Midnight Dawns

First Post
You can try every poll on here that's every mentioned it (you got a year of them). You can also look at 3.5 alt systems like pathfinder which have garnered some 80k in downloads and basae that against estimated rpg tabletop players of somewhere between 500k.

YOu can also just take personal accounts that I"ve bee nthree three edition changes and never seen it like this before. Not where whole groups and playstyles were alienated. Not enough to make other systems lucrative.
These numbers don't mean as much as you think they do. 1.) Enworld is a select audience and does not accurately represent the gaming community as a whole, 2.) There are plwnty of people like me who will download 3.5 alt system stuff but still enjoy 4 ed. Counting the number of downloads only shoes you how many people are interested in that system not how many people hate other systtems. As for personal accounts, I have heard from several friends that it was 3 and 3.5 that was what drove them and the entirety of teh groups they play with away. As others have said with each new edition this happens.

See, this is precisely why I brought up this question. I see this buzzphrase thrown around a lot, and it appears to me it's simply a codeword for "I don't like it". And you have only confirmed it for me.

I think this shows a massive misunderstanding of what "change for the sake of change" actually means. Just like Mustrum_Ridcully I can think of many changes that were made, as well as the reasons why they were done. Whether or not a given person agrees with the reasons is not relevant for determining if it's done for the sake of change. Something that was done for reasons of clarity or gamebalance were done for those purposes, no matter how much people might disagree.
This is the crux of it all. People say "change for the sake of change" when it really should be "change I don't like". I know personally I felt that way about some of the changes (ex.) alignment, I actually liked the old system) but the thing is each change did have a reason I just didn't nessecarily agree with the reason and mist people seem to take that as "change fo the sake of change".
 

Nightchilde-2

First Post
3E can also be fixed in this manner, by using E6 or E[number] rules, or some other drastic measure to stop standard progression.

That, to me, is the rub. 3E can be "fixed." 4e doesn't need to be. It works as written.

I'm currently running a short mini-campaign set at 26th level and it's not much more difficult than running at 1st level.

The best change, IMO, for 4e is the ease of DMing. It's made DMing fun again.

Change for the sake of change? Dunno. Don't care. I much, to borrow an analogy above, prefer my new comfortable sofa than the old couch I did have with the torn upholstry and the springs sticking out of it.
 

Bond James Bond

First Post
Can you expand upon this? What about character roles do you feel are restrictive?

And how exactly is ability score allotment restrictive?

What I meant was the lack of valuable multiclassing in 4E. A Fighter in 4E remains a Fighter, even if he swaps 2 or three powers via feats. Nothing compared to the endless possibilities of multiclassing with 3 or more classes in 3.x.

Another example: A rogue now means strictly light blade (or mace!?), while in 3.x he could use any weapon he was willing to learn via a feat.

Abilities are a lot more restrictive in 4E because your base chance of hitting monsters on your level declines over time. So almost all Fighter have to max str, all rogues have to max dex now etc. If you don`t you ll be ending up frustrated as your chance of hitting an enemy will soon drop far below 40%.

In 3.x, this wasnt the case to this extent. Playing a Ftr with a starting strength score of, say, 14 wasnt optimal, but not the big issue it is now, since a full BAB progression and feats (WF, GWF,...) meant you would be ending up with a very high chance to hit anyway (at least with your primary attack).

3.x also rewarded "alternative" stat allotments. Anyone who wanted decent skill points needed some points in int, for example. A few points in dex helped your ac even in heavy armor. How many Fighters will have an intelligence of 8-10 now? 95%?
 

Dausuul

Legend
Counting the number of downloads only shoes you how many people are interested in that system not how many people hate other systtems.

Exactly. Heck, I downloaded Pathfinder; it was free, and I was curious to see what they were doing with the system. I've never actually played it, however, and don't intend to.

If you compare the number of people who are willing to pay for Pathfinder to sales of 4E Player's Handbooks, you might get a better sense.
 

Eldragon

First Post
With the Swordmage class now available, I took a second look at 4e. There are dozens of things I like much better about 4e than 3e. But yet, I cannot bring myself to play 4e, since for everything I like about 4e, there is something missing from 3e that I see as requisite to any D&D game.

For example, Wizard/Cleric spell selection in 4e is abysmal, and many of the old classics are no longer interesting (I will not name them to avoid starting a separate debate).

I started writing my own 3e/4e hybrid. Basically taking 4e and smashing the parts of 3e I miss back in... In the end it became obvious we were better off playing 3e.

Our group had decided, since 4e is nothing like D&D, why play D&D at all? I'm keeping a close eye on Pathfinder, but 4e has actually caused our D&D group to lose all interest in 3e and 4e. No idea how it happened, but it did.
 

Felon

First Post
Sounds like a straw man presented under the facade of a question, as it implies that heterogeneity in general is what's being criticized, not the nature of specific changes.

I'm sorry, but what?
Sorry, I'll put it more plainly. The original post that started this thread is bogus, because it revolves around the claim that a major complaint about D&D is that it's different. In truth, most people aren't complaining because they're Luddites who loathe change. They complain because some of those differences are disappointing.
 

Wombat

First Post
I'll be brief and to my point. A major complaint of DnD 4E is that isn't different, that its not like previous editions. Well, this isn't a new thing, as the races and world in general are different in each edition. So, instead of complaining "why", ask "why not?"

New rules, new races, new setting... so why stick to The Way it Used to Be?

smile.gif

Why is it "bad". It is only "bad" for my tastes. For other people it is just fine.

What are my objections? (Again, opinions only, but they make me not want to play the game again after a couple of "test sessions")

1) The overemphasis on combat. This has always been true in D&D, but this edition strips the mask of roleplaying clearly away. Any spells that are not directly involved in combat are now "off stage". Skills that are not directly involved in combat either now have combat applications, have been eliminated, or have been pushed "off stage" again. The game is all but impossible to run without miniatures (it took us nearly a year to break the 3e reliance on minis -- this is harder). All characters have Roles that are specifically related to how they act in combat. In other words, all aspects of all characters are focused first on combat, second (and far below) on anything else. This is not to my group's taste.

2) Blandness in presentation. Every character has the same array of powers -- per day, at will, per combat, etc. They progress in the same way. The difference between a fighter and a wizard often feels like just a small group of words -- they act in nearly the same manner. And magic items just feel like add-ons to a character, just another kind of power, rather than something special in and of itself.

3) Nonhumans are just plug-ins. All nonhumans have positive adds, but no negatives. Much like magical items, these adds simply feel like another set of stats rather than a distinguishing mark.

4) There are no negative stats. Even if a character starts with a minor negative, this will be erased by later levels as every single stat will be increased. All characters are uberheroic -- thus they are all the same and have nothing to distinguish them. This reminds me of the Gilbert and Sullivan line: "If everybody's somebody, then no one's anybody."

Overall the feeling my group when playing 4e was that we were pushing chits around on a board with minor power variations. We could put roleplaying elements into such a game, but then again we used to do that with old AM & SPI boardgames. We got nearly the same feeling. Instead we find that we prefer games where combat is part of, but not the major emphasis of, a game; games where social interaction is at least as important as military prowess; games where a character necessarily has holes in his make up that must be overcome through time and trial. In other words, 4e is nearly the opposite of the kind of game we desire.

Having said all of that, I see many people who really like this game. This is good! I am glad you like it, and I mean that without the slightest bit of sarcasm. Each person must find the kind of game that fits them best.

For me, however, 4e is very, very far from that game. And that is equally valid.
 

DonTadow

First Post
Exactly. Heck, I downloaded Pathfinder; it was free, and I was curious to see what they were doing with the system. I've never actually played it, however, and don't intend to.

If you compare the number of people who are willing to pay for Pathfinder to sales of 4E Player's Handbooks, you might get a better sense.
We can play there's no 800lbs elephant in the room, but its naive not to think that 80k downloads, 10k in book sales and a consistant saleout among local stores is not a strong indication that a good chunk of d&d fans are detered from 4e.

I'm glad that 4e is easy enough for anyone to dm and allows the same easy of use as mmos, but making those changes has caused wotc to lopp off a good portion of its fanbase, not enough to make 4e unsuccessful, but enough to make other options far more viable.

I have probably talked to 50 or so people since august (face to face) about 4e, some long time players, some newbies, and i've yet heard one person say they liked it. Not one. The fact of the matter is, is that the easy of dming use makes a system where a talented DM is not needed as the system doesn't allow for creativity.
 

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