DnD on Ice

[Argyuile]

seems to me that the writers of dnd haven't read that many comic books. Bad guys are always getting bounced off walls and each over. It feels a bit unbelievable that you can slide a monster say for 4 squares , they hit a wall on the second square and the kinetic force just disappears, like wise with a monster being pushed through a square containing another monster and nothing happens to either monster, yet another case of the rules being kept simple and stupid

Pushing, pulling and sliding do not necessarily involve any type of kinetic force. Some are teleports, while others are you fighting in normal melee and drawing the enemy in or forcing him back through swordplay.

I'm sure there are many others I can't think of off the top of my head but let me ask you about the cleric turn undead power that pushes the undead 3+ cha squares. Is that the kinetic energy of the divine magic or is it the undead getting the hell out of the way from what's hurting them or simply them fleeing in terror?

 

[bert1000]

Also, some of the push, pull, slide powers seem to be not really physical grabbing pushes, but rather represent you manuvering such that your opponents end up where you want them, or your blow staggers them back, etc.

 

[Vempyre]

SI thought this was meant to be a game for Geeks?

That would be 3.5

 

[DSRilk]

they hit a wall on the second square and the kinetic force just disappears

In many (if not most) occasions, sliding and pushing aren't actually "pushing" it's maneuvering, so no important level of kinetic energy exists. Sliding and pushing are game terms that tell you how you can maneuver a foe, not necessarily what's actually happening to them.

That said, it makes sense to create rules for maneuvering someone into a wall or ally. Perhaps work it like moving them into a pit: save or effect occurs. Effect might be knocked prone, or some equivalent that costs them a move action. You might even want to have a list of options for the players to choose from: save or...

prone, -2 to AC until the end of your next turn, -2 to attack until the end of your next turn...

if the shift or move would have absorbed more than 2 squares, maybe for whomever the target got pushed into to make a save vs the effects as well (assuming the primary target failed his save).

 

[Ktulu]

For starters, most "slide" effects aren't described as powerful jolting explosive bursts. Most are described as in switching, or confusing the target (see the warlock's one, or positioning strike).

You could slide him into a wall, however, it's not going to do anything more than put him up against a wall. He's not going to explode through it (an effect that would greatly increase the power of any slide effect). His movement stops when the attempt is made because he can't move anymore.

You can slide him into or through difficult terrain, which could hamper his ability to get around.

You can slide him onto challenging terrain (slippery ice, and the sort), which he then has to make the appropriate skill check to remain standing.

You can slide him over a pit, but he gets an immediate save (read: grabbing onto the ledge) and if he saves he falls prone. If he fails, he falls over and takes whatever appropriate damage said pit/ldege gives out.

This isn't a flaw, people, sliding is not the equivalent of the Hulk punching you through a building, this is a rogue kicking you backward after a hit, or the fighter pushing you back with his shield.

Specifically, you cannot be "forced into an object". see pg. 285 [phb] for more information

Ktulu

 

[Vempyre]

As others said most of the time forced movement isn't a strong kinetic force being applied. And none of the effects that are like charges or backhanding are strong enough to put a person through a wall or do extra dmg. It would make the power more powerful that it really should be anyway, if you did. It's 4E, thinking with 3Eisms will get you nowhere. If you want comic book effects go play MM (it's fun! I recommend you try once in a while).

As for pushing somebody into a his allies' square (with bullrush for example which pushes only 1 square) it's easy to say that the target's ally just catches and pushes him back into his own square as a free immediate reaction action. Any push physical effect stronger than 1 square and the ally isn't strong enough to stop it and the target ends up past his ally (push 2 for example).

 

[Zurai]

So no one reads comic books or understands the laws of physics? I thought this was meant to be a game for Geeks?

Physics is a house rule. Has been for every edition of D&D - and rightfully so. No one would play if it required a PhD in Physics. Not even physicists. And, to counter the obvious and expected, "I'm not talking about doctoral level physics!" - sure, but where do you stop? If you include Newton's Law (equal and opposite reaction), it's 'reasonable' to include the laws and theorems that derive from that. Pretty soon you're measuring the event horizon for a sphere of annihilation. It's simplest, easiest, and most mechanically sound to draw the line at "Physics is a house rule".

 

[GeorgeFields]

Only if you decide that the lava works like that. The books don't say that it does, and it would be pretty unbalanced to make it work like that.

Please, tell me you're kidding.

For starters, most "slide" effects aren't described as powerful jolting explosive bursts. Most are described as in switching, or confusing the target (see the warlock's one, or positioning strike).

You could slide him into a wall, however, it's not going to do anything more than put him up against a wall. He's not going to explode through it (an effect that would greatly increase the power of any slide effect). His movement stops when the attempt is made because he can't move anymore.

You can slide him into or through difficult terrain, which could hamper his ability to get around.

You can slide him onto challenging terrain (slippery ice, and the sort), which he then has to make the appropriate skill check to remain standing.

You can slide him over a pit, but he gets an immediate save (read: grabbing onto the ledge) and if he saves he falls prone. If he fails, he falls over and takes whatever appropriate damage said pit/ldege gives out.

This isn't a flaw, people, sliding is not the equivalent of the Hulk punching you through a building, this is a rogue kicking you backward after a hit, or the fighter pushing you back with his shield.

Specifically, you cannot be "forced into an object". see pg. 285 [phb] for more information

Ktulu

Hey, Ktulu - what's up?

When I say "into", I don't mean crashing through the wall like the Hulk does. I'm talking about hockey style body checks and the like as you've described with the rogue and fighter examples.

I may have misunderstood the OP and don't have a book here to read the actual rule for any clarification, but the way I understood it was that you couldn't do a body check style slam into a wall or something according to RAW.

RAW, that's correct.

I think it'd be completely reasonable to introduce "knock you into stuff" rules, and use a similar system for it. I'm not sure why they didn't, honestly.

-O

Hey, Obryn, LTNS

Knocking an opponent into another creature should do more than just move him into the square, IMO. I reflex save or something should be made to see if either of them falls or stumbles. Applying a little common sense on a situational basis would probably be the best bet if you want to stick to Raw as much as possible.

 

[Zurai]

Again, pushes/pulls/slides are only rarely actual body checks/shoves/telekinetic pushes/etc. They're much more commonly flavored as making the enemy overbalance, maneuvering it into a more advantageous position by outsmarting it, etc.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Why should it require two damage rolls to simulate a power that does it's damage by violently flinging a foe?

I mean sure, if your combats take place near bladed walls, lava pits and the like, the rules for those obstacles may make a foe take more damage if he's shoved into them, but otherwise it's sensible to simply assume that the initial damage from an attack included any damage achieved by knocking them into a wall or whatever.

I mean - does being shoved into a wall really cause that much damage? Getting shoved into a square filled with daggers of magical force tends to only cause 1 or 2 points...