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Do castles make sense in a world of dragons & spells?

If the attackers have dragons (or 'insert magical threat here'), why don't the defenders?

I recall way back we had a fantasy arms race thread, which led to weird innovations like hedgerows of roses and other thorny plants surrounding a town, to make it easier for druids to entangle attackers. And someone recommended capturing a medusa and putting it in a room with no ceiling but four solid walls. In peacetime you keep a tarp over it, but during battle you leave it open to the sky.
 

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Bullgrit

Adventurer
Ariosto said:
Do fortifications make sense in a world of nuclear weapons? Do minefields and barbed wire, walls and trenches and tank traps make sense in a world of aircraft?
RangerWickett said:
If the attackers have dragons (or 'insert magical threat here'), why don't the defenders?
My first thoughts on reading the OP were the above points.

Why have we fences in a world with helicoptors? Why do only attackers have 8th-level wizards with wands of fireball?

It's like the old argument about how a 20th-level fighter can just wade through an army single-handedly. The argument always assumes that the army doesn't have any leveled characters on its side.

Bullgrit
 

Celebrim

Legend
It's an interesting set of observations. I'm assuming that area defense is considered so much more problematic because of the idea of equating magic with technological and scientific power/physics.

I don't think so. D&D's palette of traditional spells are focused on dungeon exploration and designed with balance with regard to dungeon exploration in mind. They were balanced according to percieved utility in those dungeon environments. The larger effect on society doesn't seem to have been a strong consideration, nor does there seem to have been any underlying theory on the complexity of the magic or the energy involved.

I think that area defensive magic was overlooked primarily for two reasons:

1) It would have seemed to have been primarily 'screw the PCs' magic which took away options from PC spellcasters.
2) The PC's themselves had no use for it in a dungeon environment.

I think that because in part, area defensive magic does exist but only in forms which are useful to dungeon exploration and general adventuring. If you look at what we have in area defensive magic, we've got alot of stuff, among other things: Alarm, Arcane Lock, Antipathy, Consecrate, Dimensional Lock, Fire Trap, Forbiddance, Guards and Wards, Hallow, Ironwood, Misdirection, Faithful Hound, Magnificent Mansion, Private Sanctum, Nondetection, Obscure Object, Sequester, Tiny Hut, Zone of Silence, Zone of Truth. But pretty much all of that is designed toward creating a temporary defensive 'camp' for adventurers on the move, or else for assisting in the defense of a place by a few skilled individuals. As a means of creating a more permenent defense it all fails various tests of one sort or another: duration, availability, area of effect, cost, and/or livability. An arcane lock is really great for a wizard defending his tower, but not nearly as useful as a spell lock which can be opened using a more general key (spoken word, wearing a particular uniform, time of day, etc.). Faithful hound is an amazing spell for defending a doorway or passage against invisible invaders, but its duration is geared toward 'while the mage sleeps' and its availability (5th level) makes it problimatic as a common defense against the much more readily available 2nd level spell (Invisibility). And so on and so forth.

It seems to me that for game purposes, its logical to assume that a particular magical attack can be countered by a defensive spell of similar level. Likewise, we have a very obvious reason for wanting to imagine that the fantasy world has alot in common with the real world and that the impact of magic need not be so great on the setting that it becomes unrecognizable except by design. It seems to me that balanced defensive spells can be created that fulfill these goals.

It's important to note that I came to these conclusions not by being a DM, because the DM can create whatever defences he thinks he needs by fiat. Cost and practicality are no real obstacles to a DM because the DM has effectively unlimited resources to create suitable challenges with. I came to these conclusions being a PC, because as a PC you soon find that adequately or even minimally defending your possessions and retainers from magic with available techniques is cost prohibitive.

It's not just castles. Castles can be made to defend against dragons and fireballs without too much fuss, but they are difficult to impossible to secure against invisible attackers and dimensional travel. Sailing vessels by being mobile do better there, but are almost impossible to secure against magical fire attacks. And so forth. It's not just a matter of sufficiently high level spell casters can wreck havoc. That doesn't bother me. It's that a spell-caster of a given level has trouble frustrating attacks by a spell-caster of lower level because there aren't suitable defensive long duration spells available to do so. They need not be as proactive as Faithful Hound. An until discharged duration spell that cast glitterdust on invisible interlopers would do the trick. A spell that cheaply granted long duration fire resistance to objects according to their weight would go along way toward suggesting how societies delt with pervasive ability to conjure fire.

Then again with sufficient magic, or with cooperative magic, need castles be fixed emplacements as we normally think of them? Could they not become mobile command centers, perhaps even a type of FOB able to be transported or teleported into and out of the areas of an engagement as necessary? One could even imagine, with enough power expenditure, or trasnformative magic, a walking castle, or one that transforms into other things.

I don't have a problem with such legendary scale things as a flying castles and buildings that walk about on bird legs, I just have no desire for them to be so prevasive that they first lose their sense of awe and wonder and secondly transform society beyond the point were it can be easily related to by the player or easily imagined by the DM.
 

As always, folk completely misunderstand one of the main reasons to have a defensive base like a castle:

It's not the thickness of the castle walls that is important, it's how damn good it's PATROLS, spy network, supply line are, and it's strategic use that are really important!

What use are super dooper antidragon defences if you don't have patrols and spies to tell you you're gonna be invaded by gibberling hordes, not local dragons?

What use are adamatine walls when an assassin poisons your elites/leaders?

And so on.

So folk really need ot think what a castle is ABOUT, not just it's D&D stats ;)

also, for 4th ed, rituals, damn right they are useful, rituals of warding, inviisbility dispelling, poison finding, summon guardian elementals (best alarm is a screaming archon chopping up some infiltrators), guarding your water supply from contamination etc (last one is CRUCIAL)


Just a question of perspective :)

and dragons? fire proof wires stretched between turrets coated with adamantine spikes and anti-dragon poisons...
 

Truth Seeker

Adventurer
All things have their place, in where you want it.

Castles against Dragons and spells...it gives such opportunity for the foes to try to take one down. Especially in a fantasy setting. Any builder worth their salt, better have learnt the lessons of the past to prepare for better defense for the present and the future.

Plus...capitals of power (kingdoms who hold sway) need to have them around, to show their...clout.
 

frankthedm

First Post
Castles work because fantastic & wondrous problems that circumvent castles are supposed to rare enough to still be fantastic & wondrous in the game world.

If a setting has a problem with invisible fliers, then more invisibility seeking balista bolts that Targeted dispel whatever they are about to hit are needed, not fewer castles.:devil:

Plus, if air attacks are a problem, that is why you build elaborate underground bases. AKA Dungeons
 
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Celebrim

Legend
If a setting has a problem with invisible fliers, then more invisibility seeking balista bolts that Targeted dispel whatever they are about to hit are needed, not fewer castles.

Doesn't work. Because the cost of creating invisibility seeking balista bolts that targeted dispel whatever they are about to hit compared to the cost of invisibility, means that they are no more and probably less effective of an answer than building invisibility and fire proofed fortifications. The one is as easy to evade and cheaply destroy the value of as the other, but at least the fortification provides more mundane defense at a similar cost.

I mean magical items are seriously expensive, both in terms of cost and availability of the casters that can create them. The fact that I can concievably turn a whole castle into a magic item with whatever property I desire does not in itself justify the existance of castles.

The question I'm asking is more along the lines of, "If 3rd or 5th level spellcasters are reasonably common threats, why hasn't society evolved magical defenses suitable to thwarting 3rd or 5th level spell casters." I'm not asking how society defends against 20th level wizards, because the answer to that is obvious ('With other 20th level wizards.'). I'm focusing on the fact that in just about every campaign, in practice low level spellcasters are fairly common but defenses against these low level attacks are generally limited only to the presumably rare very high level spell-casters. Obviously, if your campaign world is such that every shopkeeper is a 9th level wizard, the answer to this question can be much more direct but it raises other questions like, "Why does your world superficially resemble a world where magic is rare to non-existant?"
 
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Dausuul

Legend
Doesn't work. Because the cost of creating invisibility seeking balista bolts that targeted dispel whatever they are about to hit compared to the cost of invisibility, means that they are no more and probably less effective of an answer than building invisibility and fire proofed fortifications. The one is as easy to evade and cheaply destroy the value of as the other, but at least the fortification provides more mundane defense at a similar cost.

I mean magical items are seriously expensive, both in terms of cost and availability of the casters that can create them. The fact that I can concievably turn a whole castle into a magic item with whatever property I desire does not in itself justify the existance of castles.

The question I'm asking is more along the lines of, "If 3rd or 5th level spellcasters are reasonably common threats, why hasn't society evolved magical defenses suitable to thwarting 3rd or 5th level spell casters." I'm not asking how society defends against 20th level wizards, because the answer to that is obvious ('With other 20th level wizards.'). I'm focusing on the fact that in just about every campaign, in practice low level spellcasters are fairly common but defenses against these low level attacks are generally limited only to the presumably rare very high level spell-casters.

As you yourself pointed out, it really depends on how comprehensive you consider the spell list to be. D&D spells are strongly focused on practical adventuring. Other types of magic are scanted or ignored, but it's not unreasonable to assume they exist... for example, there might be a ritual that wards a structure against teleportation, requiring a year to complete (hence not something PCs are likely to have or use) but castable by a 3rd-level wizard.

Personally, I think D&D would benefit from an effort to expand PCs' horizons, just a little bit. The relentless focus on all dungeons all the time kills my interest after a while. 2E and BECMI tried to push the envelope some, but they didn't push it very far, and when WotC took over, everything that didn't relate to the dungeon or its surface equivalent got cut.
 
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Thornir Alekeg

Albatross!
I will agree with others posting here. Castles are an outward sign of power, extremely useful against mundane attacks, and that can have its own magical and aerial defenses when needed. They are superior to underground caverns because the fact is, most of the population in the game worlds are surface dwellers. They need space, they need plants grown in large fields in the sun, they need land for animals to graze in.

Castles are superior to underground fortresses in other ways as well. They can see forces coming from a longer distance. Teh height advantage from the walls give your archers and siege engines superior position and range. While castles are less defensible, they provide greater opportunities to be able to break a seige; you can attack from the walls to clear a space to let a counter attack sally forth. How would you do that from an underground fortress? Sure, you can have secret exits, but if the enemy finds and covers them, you are trapped for certain.

Last of course is that where there is magic and flying creatures for air assault, there is magic and burrowing creatures that can attack underground fortresses as well.

Last point, castles look cool.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Castles are superior to underground fortresses in other ways as well.

Typical D&D Dwarven fortresses suffer from unrealistic designs in alot of ways, especially when you compare them to Tolkien's dwarven cities that inspired them.

If we take Erebor and Moria as typical, dwarven cities had alot of features that were deemed essential for livability that your typical D&D dwarf built fortress lacks. For example, Moria had windows carved into the side of the mountain to let in light into the residential parts of the city. These windows become points of entry for magical attackers that constitute not really more significant of a barrier than a castle wall. Erebor fell to Smaug in part because the dwarves on watch outside the fortress could not communicate with the dwarves inside, resulting in a haphazard and poorly coordinated defense and dwarves being ambushed peicemeal. The problem with most D&D dwarven strongholds is that in an effort to make them as assault proof as possible, they are turned into airless, lightless, waterless vaults with no provision for getting in and out on a daily basis. Once you start adding things like air shafts to convey fresh air into the city and let smoke out, water for drinking and sanitation, windows to let in light, observation towers to survey the land, and so forth, you end up with a castle with unusually thick walls.
 

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