Do castles make sense in a world of dragons & spells?

[Ariosto]

It will depend on the particular army compositions of course but having a 20' radius chunk of men fall (or several for multiple fireballs from multiple casters or one firing sequentially) is likely to have a very detrimental effect on morale.

Yes, indeed. I just have typically not found that the best use of 20% or more of an m-u's stock of fireballs.

Greek fire, "carcass" munition, chain or canister shot from cannon, organ guns, or (a real crowd pleaser) flaming pigs are probably more cost effective (if less impressive in a single shot).

YMMV, of course, depending on just how common fireballs are relative to other things -- and how much monsters and high-level characters figure in the battle.

If there's a battalion you absolutely positively need gone this minute, then a fireball is probably the way to go. Barring that, I would rather go for more powerful targets. A chance to blow away an enemy mage is usually by far the best opportunity! Even if he makes his save, that's (in OD&D with Supp. I, B/X or AD&D) on average 70% of full HP gone (if of the same level, up to "name" after which it's an even harder blow). Of, course, you'll want to maneuver such that he's discouraged from replying in kind if he does survive ...

 

[Silver Moon]

Interesting how this thread seems to focus on magical creatures and wizard spells. To me the great equalizer on these D&D worlds are the clerics and deities - they're the ones who can negate any and all defenses.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Do traditional castles make sense as defensive structures in a fantasy world of dragons and spells?
<snip>

1. The Dwarves got it right! Underground delves and citadels hewn deep into mountain rock would provide ample protection from aerial assault.

2. Think London during the Blitz. Air-raid shelters, bunkers, underground tunnels and chambers you could hole-up in with a few feet of rock or concrete between you and the explosions above.
<snip- other good stuff>

My personal take on it for the past 15 years has pretty much been this.

Frequency of a particular monster type has little to do with it: consider how many creatures have flight inherently...and then how many can learn spells or powers that give them that ability.

Of course, there's also the tunnelers and incorporeal beings to deal with...

But as long as you can protect against one avenue of attack, you'd do so. IOW, fantasy strongholds would more likely resemble those of WW1 on than Neuschwanstein or Dunluce.

 

[Set]

Of course, there's also the tunnelers and incorporeal beings to deal with...

Back in ye olde days, there were odd ways to attempt to prevent people from travelling ethereally or astrally through one's castle walls (gorgon's blood mortar, or a layer of some living tissue), or scrying into sealed areas (thin layers of lead), etc.

If the game is going in that direction, I'd try to come up with similar 'fixes' to the most common issues. Castles would have underground connecting chambers, so that a fireball raining down from above during a siege might not find a bunch of people standing exposed. Catapults and ballista would hurl not just rocks and big spears, but weighted and barbed nets, or catapult-sized doses of tanglefoot goop at large flying attackers, causing them to drop to the ground (gravity for the win). Incorporeal undead might find a layer of blessed silver worked into the mortar, that either bars their passage, or just burns them if they do force their way through.

Other defenses would depend on the commonality of exotic dangers. If the local Salamanders like to send Thoqqua burrowing up into the castle so that they have easy routes past the defenses, perhaps some sort of dwarven-built system of tunnels beneath the castle that are filled with a massive reservoir of water, that drowns any burrowing Thoqqua who comes up (and quite possibly leaves it juicy and tender, steamed to perfection for the maintenance crews dining pleasure). More magical solutions could include glyphs of warding placed in various subterranean pockets that inflict Cold damage (a nasty surprise for Thoqqua), a magically maintained series of storage tunnels that are kept at brutally cold temperatures (yes, our basement freezer-storage also doubles as a no-Thoqqua zone), or, if the monsters sent upwards are conjured thoqqua or earth elementals and not 'free-roaming,' a simple massive Hallow-backed Magic Circle of Protection from evil, that prevents summoned creatures from pushing their way up into the warded area.

But if none of this has ever happened in the area, there's no reason to waste all of this work (although the Hallow - Magic Circle is probaby a lot easier to accomplish in a hurry than the flooded tunnel schemes...). Similarly, if the local area isn't reknowned for it's dragon attacks, spending a bunch of money on tanglefoot catapult shot might not be the best investment (just a few, 'cause ya never know, and you've got an alchemist on retainer, right?).

And there's always the possibility for more exotic solution. I vaguely recall some story from WW2 about a building being hidden from long-range bombardment by a giant canvas painting of the city backdrop that was dropped down the side from the ceiling, making the building impossible to see for the operators of the giant guns outside the city.

A permanant glamer could accomplish a similar feature, with only those who work in the keep knowing that the central building is on the left side of the courtyard, not the right, and that bombardment of the 'keep' on the right will just destroy the gardens. Even many of those working in the keep as serving staff might have no idea, as they enter a series of switch-abouts while passing through the gates and get thoroughly turned about in the process, being led to believe they are entering from another side entirely.

The game has pretty much endless options for item enhancement (just as one could use blindness/deafness to create a thundering weapon) or for the research and creation of new spells entirely for castle defense. Between that, alchemy, and artificial limitations added to the system (such as lead sheets, gorgon's blood mortar, etc.), it shouldn't be too difficult to make a castle defensively viable.

 

[Turtlejay]

All this dragon talk, but I think a Bulette would be more hazardous to a castle, personally. Better than a sapping team! You all defend against dragons, I'll ride my Bulette at the head of an Ankheg army and take your castle. . .

Of course, I'd say magic, like technology, is just another arms race. As soon as one side deploys fireballs, the other develops countermeasures, ad nauseum, etc, until the advent of the magic nuke ushers in the magic cold war. Scary times.

Jay

 

[Mark Chance]

The idea certainly has merit, however, there are situations where you want to keep the ealdrin intact and so put him in a sphercial tower, transparent in all directions and all standable surfaces are 31 feet away

Impossible. All measurements must be in increments of 5 feet, or, more precisely 1 square. For much the same reason, you can't actually have a round tower.

 

[interwyrm]

Impossible. All measurements must be in increments of 5 feet, or, more precisely 1 square. For much the same reason, you can't actually have a round tower.

Well actually, due to the way diagonals work... a cube is actually a sphere.

 

[Mark Chance]

Well actually, due to the way diagonals work... a cube is actually a sphere.

And a square is a circle. Imagine how messed up geometry, architecture, et cetera are in a D&D world. Carts with square wheels. No arches or domes. What a mess.

 

[countgray]

Set, I like your thinking and that is exactly the point I was trying to make and the innovations I was trying to elicit. My point is not that castles are useless or set decorations for a game, but that in a fantasy world they would have to adapt and look somewhat different to the way we traditionally expect them to look.

Some posters have argued that a fantasy castle need not look any different than a medieval castle for the reason that, even in a fantasy world, fantastical threats will be uncommon and the majority of threats posed will be traditional threats faced by medieval societies, barbarian raiders, goblin hordes, etc. which are not that different from human foot soldiers. While I think traditional threats are indeed some of the perils, perhaps even the most common ones, that fantasy castles must guard against, I think it misguided to hand-wave away the prospect of more fantastical opponents as "uncommon."

History has shown us that whenever a superior military technology or tactic has been discovered, it is quickly adopted and becomes not only common but the norm. There is every reason to assume that if there are creatures that can be easily bred or recruited, trained, and used for military purposes that they will be used for exactly that.

Medieval armies had cavalry; even very ancient armies used chariots and horses. Raising a herd of pegasi or other flying steeds can't involve all that much more cost and effort, and if the creatures exist and can be used to advantage, armies will do so. It is almost a given that flying mounts (or flying soldiers) would be an integral component of fantasy armies. Even such terrible creatures as Dragons could be selectively bred, over time, for temperment and controllability, so as to domesticate them--at least for the purpose of military conquest.

Any dark lord worth his salt would make sure that his invading army is as nasty and ferrocious as he can muster. To the extent that he can employ uncommon tactics, tactics which the defenders are not anticipating, and which their castles were not built to guard against, he will do so. Smart evil overlords will use every tactic at their disposal, no matter how sneaky or unconventional. If it is possible in that world, you have to assume it will be in their arsenal. I would expect even the lowly, local goblin horde to have bat-riders or to ally with cloakers to a attack a castle from the air.

To that end, I think castle builders will need to anticipate not only conventional attacks, but as many unconventional attacks as their imagination can devise. With that in mind, I can conceive of a number of potential opponents that fantasy castles would have to address. (Not including spells and magical effects, as I think they deserve a separate post):

Flyers: Pegasi, gryphons, hippogriffs, manticores, chimeras, dragons, drakes, rocs, giant eagles, giant bats, giant wasps, stirges, harpys, fiends, sylphs, gargoyles, cloakers, sprites, angels, air elementals, etc.

Burrowers: Dwarves, gnomes, bullettes, ankhegs, giant moles, dragons, and other diggers could be used to excavate tunnels underneath fortifications allowing access not only for them but for the normal legions that could swarm in behind them.

Phasers, and Incorporeal creatures: Earth elementals, xorn, ghosts, vampires, air elementals, etc. that can phase through rock, walk through walls, turn into gas or mist and seep through windows and cracks. All these methods frustrate the protection afforded by thick walls.

Diminuitive creatures: Sprites, sturges, insect swarms, snakes, creatures that can turn into insect swarms, shape shifters that can reduce their size and then grow big again. All these creatures, especially if they can fly and swarm in large numbers, can present harder targets to hit, are harder to spot, and can gain access through arrow slits, chimneys, drain pipes, and small openings that larger oponents could not squeeze through or that castle builders might not ordinarily consider as a vulnerable point of easy access.

Liquid creatures: water elementals, lava creatures, battle oozes.

Invisible creatures: [you can't see the list 'cause it's invisible]

Extradimensional movement: Ethereal, Astral travel, shadowwalk, feystep, gates, portals, summoning, etc.

The architecture of a fantasy castle would need to be adapted to defend against these dangers and more if it were to be an effective redoubt in a fantasy world.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Some posters have argued that a fantasy castle need not look any different than a medieval castle for the reason that, even in a fantasy world, fantastical threats will be uncommon and the majority of threats posed will be traditional threats faced by medieval societies, barbarian raiders, goblin hordes, etc. which are not that different from human foot soldiers. While I think traditional threats are indeed some of the perils, perhaps even the most common ones, that fantasy castles must guard against, I think it misguided to hand-wave away the prospect of more fantastical opponents as "uncommon."

History has shown us that whenever a superior military technology or tactic has been discovered, it is quickly adopted and becomes not only common but the norm. There is every reason to assume that if there are creatures that can be easily bred or recruited, trained, and used for military purposes that they will be used for exactly that.

Not only that, but just because one particular threat is uncommon or rare doesn't mean that the number of potential foes with essentially the same abilities is rare as well. IOW, a particular flying foe may be in and of itself quite the rarity...but flying itself is quite common.

Just think of what would happen once a single Kobold Sorcerer learned Dimension Door or Fly, for instance...and if he was part of "Tucker's" tribe, look out! That spell would probably be disseminated through the entirety of the tribe's qualified spellcasters...and possibly their allies as well.

<snipped excellent details>

The problem that I see is that there may be only one or two strongholds in the world built with the bankroll to protect adequately against ALL of those threats. At some point, the gold runs out and the compromises must begin.

Into that gap comes training and personnel. Instead of making your stronghold proof against earth elementals, you might train/hire those who can combat/control/rebuke them. Instead of making your stronghold proof against phasers, you might equip a special squad or 2 with the weaponry to fight such foes.