Do enhancement bonuses to ability count against ability damage?

[Vraille Darkfang]

I use the "Easy Math Route"

Your ability scores are the sum of all the effects you have going on. Negative Scores exist, but they the same effect as a 0.

For Example:

Str 10, with Enhancment belt +5, and say Infernal Bonus +5 (20 Str).

Gets zapped for -5 (Str 15). Gets posioned for 8 (7), gets nailed for 6 more 1 minute later (1).

Suddnely had a religious conversion & loses the +5 Infernal Bonus (now at -4, but treated as 0). Belt falls off (now at -9, but still treated as 0). (His 'normal' Str is now 10).

Gets a 3 lesser restorations (12 total points back). He's now at 3 Str (-9+12). If he puts the belt back on, he goes up to 8. He may rest for 7 more days to get his full strength up (now a 15 max, the goody-goody).

I just keep a running total, its easiest for me.

Well, I did cut a guy some slack once. -45 Dex is pretty harsh, or how many poisoned darts can one stick in a trap anyway?

I think the offical answer is you can't drain below 0, so once you hit 0, all other effects don't actualy happen, so you don't have to worry about healing them.

 

[wuyanei]

So... if we treat the enhancement bonus as a 'bonus', and 'damage' or 'drain' as a 'penality', thing become clear.

In my player's case, he had 14 Str, plus +4 enhancement bonus. The Shadows imposed a total -16 'damage' penality on him, reducing him to a net Strength of 2. Once the +4 enhancement bonus is gone, he is reduced to 14 Str -16 'damage' penality which, since total strength cannot go below zero, equals to 0.

If the player then get his ands on a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, he would be at 14 Str +2 enhancement bonus -16 'damage' penality which still equals to 0.

Now, only two questions remain: 1) since the -16 'damage' penality does reduce the PC to 0 Str, does he now die or not? 2) He has -16 'damage' penality, but is at 0 Str. How many days (assume 1 ability point per day) will he need to naturally heal to full health?

As for myself, it think the answers are: 1) No, he lives, because the 'damage penality' does not distinguish between sources. You must be brought below 0 Str by the attack of a shadow for the death effect to happen. After the attack is over, the 'damage' is just damage, no different from any other damage -- perhaps due to poison or another spell; and 2) I would rule that he is especially weak, and needs 16 days to fully recover. The game simply does not mechanically distinguish between a net negative ability score and an ability score of 0. However, the 'damage' penality goes away at 1 point per day, so a -16 'damage' penality will require 16 days to heal. However, this does raise the question of: "How far into the negatives can you go?" Can you keep feeding an unconscious person poison, so that he is so far negative that it might take him years or even decades to get back into the positive? To prevent this, I would also add a rule that 'If any ability score is reduced to 0, that ability score becomes immune to furthur ability score damage until it is increased to a minimum of 1'. But this rule does seem rather contrived.... perhaps you will have a better interpretion?

Edit: Vraille Darkfang your interpretion is exactly the same as my own. Unless soembody comes up with something better, this is what I will use from now on.

 

[KarinsDad]

So... if we treat the enhancement bonus as a 'bonus', and 'damage' or 'drain' as a 'penality', thing become clear.

In my player's case, he had 14 Str, plus +4 enhancement bonus. The Shadows imposed a total -16 'damage' penality on him, reducing him to a net Strength of 2. Once the +4 enhancement bonus is gone, he is reduced to 14 Str -16 'damage' penality which, since total strength cannot go below zero, equals to 0.

If the player then get his ands on a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, he would be at 14 Str +2 enhancement bonus -16 'damage' penality which still equals to 0.

If he got his hands on a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength after the fact (i.e. after he is already at zero), he would then go to Str 2. It does not matter how many points were drained, what matters is what his current Str total is when he dons the gauntlets (or in this case, when his allies don the gauntlets for him ).

Now, only two questions remain: 1) since the -16 'damage' penality does reduce the PC to 0 Str, does he now die or not? 2) He has -16 'damage' penality, but is at 0 Str. How many days (assume 1 ability point per day) will he need to naturally heal to full health?

1) He is not dead. The Shadows did not bring him down to zero Str. They only brought him down to 2 Str. He is helpless.

2) It takes 14 days to go from Str 0 to Str 14.

 

[Avatar of the North]

ABILITY SCORE LOSS
Various attacks cause ability score loss, either ability damage or ability drain. Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well. Ability drain, however, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.
While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.
• Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
• Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
• Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
• Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
• Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
• Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.
Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0.
Having a score of 0 in an ability is different from having no ability score whatsoever.
Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value.
If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.
The ability that some creatures have to drain ability scores is a supernatural one, requiring some sort of attack. Such creatures do not drain abilities from enemies when the enemies strike them, even with unarmed attacks or natural weapons.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

As for myself, it think the answers are: 1) No, he lives, because the 'damage penality' does not distinguish between sources. You must be brought below 0 Str by the attack of a shadow for the death effect to happen.

Nit: you don't have to be brought below Str 0 to die, just 0 is enough.

 

[Thia Halmades]

*checks watch* Why the hell am I always late to these things? Need a better day planner. The answer I see is similar to what was said above:

The STAT cannot be moved below 0. The enhancement bonus, belt, keeps him at a calculated +4 STR, but because the stat was dumped out completely (noting that the belt isn't bein drained, nor does it keep the character alive) then he would, in fact, go belly up and turn into a Shadow.

I can't find a FAQ on it, but checking the SRD, I note that a character with an Ability score of 0 is adversely affected (in STR, this means on the ground, helpless). So the way I'm interpreting RAW, the ability modifier isn't the STR score; it's lending magical aid. The character would in fact be greased and raise as a Shadow. This is drawing the distinction between an Ability Score and your modified Ability Score.

Your Modified CON score gives you more HP yeah? Yeah. And when it goes down you lose HP yeah? Yeah. If a Berserker were to Rage, and have his CON score reduced to 2 during the Rage, then the Rage ended, he would die, yeah? Oh yeah. Very yeah. Thump. Dead. This is an interesting example because we all agree on it; we know the CON goes away, and we also know that the CON counts as part of the Stat until the effect of the Rage ends.

In the STR question, we're asking what happens in regards to a mechanical bonus (i.e., from an item), and if we look on the character sheet, what we're talking about isn't the adjusted score, but the stat itself. If that Stat is dropped to 0, then yeah, he's goin' down.

Not the fun way, but the most accurate way I can see.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[KarinsDad]

The STAT cannot be moved below 0. The enhancement bonus, belt, keeps him at a calculated +4 STR, but because the stat was dumped out completely (noting that the belt isn't bein drained, nor does it keep the character alive) then he would, in fact, go belly up and turn into a Shadow.

I can't find a FAQ on it, but checking the SRD, I note that a character with an Ability score of 0 is adversely affected (in STR, this means on the ground, helpless). So the way I'm interpreting RAW, the ability modifier isn't the STR score; it's lending magical aid. The character would in fact be greased and raise as a Shadow. This is drawing the distinction between an Ability Score and your modified Ability Score.

...

In the STR question, we're asking what happens in regards to a mechanical bonus (i.e., from an item), and if we look on the character sheet, what we're talking about isn't the adjusted score, but the stat itself. If that Stat is dropped to 0, then yeah, he's goin' down.

Not the fun way, but the most accurate way I can see.

It's a fine distinction here:

"A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies."

The Shadow did not reduce his Strength to 0. The Shadow reduced his Strength to 2.

The spell expiring reduced his Strength to 0.

Granted, this would not have happened if the Shadow did not do 16 Strength damage to the PC, but this is a literal interpretation which is also the one which is the most fun for the player.

This interpretation is just as valid according to RAW as one which kills the PC.

Note: Nobody is saying that he is not helpless with a 0 Str. We are saying that he is not dead because the Shadow did not (at the time) directly reduce him to zero.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Neg; if the magic was keeping him alive, then the Magical Bonus is what we're talking about, not the revised score, but the attribute itself.

What I'm saying is: Brother has a 16 STR, straight up. You buff him. He now has an 18 STR. What he really has, is a 16 STR + 2 Magical Bonus. I'm not arguing the legitamcy of your ruling, per se - I might have ruled it the same way, although my players are pretty strict on RAW whenever possible.

What I'm saying is, his base stat was knocked to 0. Once the base stat is 0, thump, over he goes. That does seem to be supported by RAW. I do see what you're saying, and in your shoes (and with a less reality driven, hard core campaign) I might've done the same thing. But the rules aim me towards drawing an exact distinction, a thick line if you will, between the actual stat, and any modifiers to the stat.

If the base stat is 0, then regardless of bonuses, he's done.

 

[Hypersmurf]

From memory, there was a Sage Advice at one point in 3E that attempted to address the "belt off, belt on" trick. (It may have been a suggestion from Monte Cook, though.) It stated that an enhancement bonus has no effect on an ability score of zero.

So if the 14 Str character puts on his Gauntlets, his Str is 16; if he gets poisoned for 15 points of Str damage, his Str is 1; if he takes off his Gauntlets, his Str is 0 (and he's helpless); if someone puts his Gauntlets back on him, nothing happens, since the +2 enhancement bonus can't enhance a Str of 0.

Needless to say, this isn't actually supported by any written rules.

Intuitively, I want to say that someone drained to 2 by a Shadow who then removes his gauntlets would die. But I'm also inclined to say that someone drained to 2 by a Shadow and then poisoned for another two points would not die... even if someone subsequently removed his Gauntlets. So I'd be comfortable with a reading that said removing the Gauntlets wouldn't kill anyone under any circumstances.

-Hyp.

 

[DreamChaser]

The Anibuffs and Items grant an enhancement bonus, not an ability score change or inherent bonus. Saying that this bonus changes the score does not gel with other enhancement bonuses.

Does a suit of leather armor with +2 enhancement bonus gain an armor bonus of +4? no it has an armor bonus of +2 and an enhancement bonus of +2. Otherwise, one would be forced to wonder how leather the same thickness as all other leather armor can suddenly offer more protection. It doesn't. The magic of the enhancement does.

In most situations does this make a difference? No. For most purposes, the two are one and the same. The key however is that in an antimagic field the enhancement goes away. Moreover, you cannot place an enhancement bonus on something that does not already have a +1 armor (or shield) bonus (ie clothes). Without something already there to enhance, the enhancement has no effect.

The same is true for stat enhancement. The magic provides an augmentation to the actual stat, not a change to the stat. If a character suffers an effect that reduces the score, the score reduces, but there is no reason that a +4 enhancement bonus to strength would be counted as part of the original score, other than simplicity.

This means that a person with Dex 10 wearing gloves of dexterity would be paralyzed when she took 10 points of Dex damage (Score = 0) even though after the gloves she has a +2. The gloves have nothing to enhance, so she is paralyzed.

The same is true of the shadow example.

DC