D&D 5E Do Fighter Battlemaster Superiority dice feel magical?

[Oofta]

Shield Master is a Feat vs Battlemaster being a progressive Class Feature. But I see your point. You can argue that Maneuvers have a supernatural feel in that they can allow an element of fantastical capability to the fighter. But that's more flavor than mechanic. It's like when Captain America bounces his shield to hit three Hydra Agents. You could say that's not really possible (supernatural) but he's just that good.

But you never hear Cap say "Sorry Iron Man, I can't throw my shield right now because I don't have any superiority dice left".

That's different from someone running out of ammunition (or spell slots), or the enemy agents aren't in correct formation for the shield to bounce correctly. It's a completely artificial, and not in any way natural, limitation.

I could see some type of mechanism involving usage of stamina, only being allowed under certain circumstances, or similar mechanisms. My rule of thumb is: would this make sense in an action movie or a book? Most mechanisms in D&D meet that criteria, maneuvers do not.

Barbarians are supernatural warriors, powered by animal totems, spirits of their ancestors, etc. Monks have a reserve of supernatural energy in the form of ki. Saying that battlemasters have an artificial, unnatural mechanism isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[mellored]

If special maneuvers were always available then they wouldn't be special anymore. Essentially Superiority Dice are on cool down once used, refreshing on a simple Short Rest so that they're available in many/most combats.

I disagree.

Having trip as a bonus action instead of a regular action still makes you feel special. But not magical.

Just like rogues cunning action. It's cool to be able to run all over the place.

 

[Wiseblood]

I disagree.

Having trip as a bonus action instead of a regular action still makes you feel special. But not magical.

Just like rogues cunning action. It's cool to be able to run all over the place.

That would be cool.

 

[outsider]

I've been saying for a while that if there was a fighter archetype that included stuff like: you may shove or grapple as a bonus action, and you may ignore size limitations on shoves/grapples, I'd be all over it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, but 15 feet? And every time the ranged BM declares a pushing attack he's catching someone off balance? What if he's throwing a dart?... but throwing an opponent 15 feet with any ranged weapon (and even most melee attacks) simply stretches the idea of a non-magical attack to me.

Nod. It's a consequence of keeping maneuvers very general. It may seem fine for a half-ogre swinging a maul, but for the gnome with a rapier or the - no, I can't think of a fighter who'd be throwing darts (especially as I can't help thinking pub darts, all these years later, even though I've long since been told that the historical weapons being referenced were more like short javelins) - you have to re-imagine the maneuver without leaning so hard on the name.

Apropos of nothing, this somehow reminded me of an NPC opponent I threw together for my 4e campaign who had a 'power' that represented a sort of fantasy firearm. It did pretty good damage on a hit, but on a /miss/ it knocked you prone. Because that's how you had to dodge it, like in the movies. :shrug: Similarly, he had a cutlass, and on a miss, he'd slide you one, because he was a skilled duelist, and avoiding his attacks let him force you 'back' a little.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

But you never hear Cap say "Sorry Iron Man, I can't throw my shield right now because I don't have any superiority dice left".

...

Oh, it's definitely a dramatic license limitation. Nothing realistic causes these special abilities to be available or not. It's a narrative thing. Too much of a super thing becomes less super, after all. The core of D&D is story telling, so there are times you need to reconcile that abilities and powers need to exist in a continuing story line. Reality becomes secondary to the needs of the dramatic structure, which is what balancing the game is all about. Without that kind of balancing players can sense that there's something 'off' with the story - the characters are too strong/weak for their expectations. And of course this sense of narrative 'propriety' is quite subjective from one player to the next. Which is why we have conversations like ... this.

 

[Blue]

I want the answer of "Both - depends on how you skin them".

Does "Reducing a health variable by d8+4" feel magical? It's not in-game, it's a mechanical descriptor. If it was "shoot a blast of blast of force out of your finger and harm a foe", it could be magical. If it was "shoot an arrow in someone" it wouldn't be.

Similarly, the options for the BM, with the exception of the names, are mostly just mechanical descriptors that you can described in different ways as long as you fit the narrative to the results. If it's because of raw skill, a magical blessing, or translucent fae bees that sting your opponent, it feeling magical or not is up to you.

 

[TwoSix]

Similarly, the options for the BM, with the exception of the names, are mostly just mechanical descriptors that you can described in different ways as long as you fit the narrative to the results. If it's because of raw skill, a magical blessing, or translucent fae bees that sting your opponent, it feeling magical or not is up to you.

As a scarred veteran of the Edition War, I know that there is a certain percentage of the player base that does not feel that the mechanics should be used that way. They are quite...vocal.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Shield master would make sense in an action movie, battlemaster maneuvers would not.

How many action movies have you seen where a bad-ass combatant of some kind does the same move, every, single, time he attacks? I mean, you might start seeing 'signature moves' after a few scenes, but the choreographer's going to mix it up, keep it interesting. Anemic as they may be in some ways, the pacing of CS dice & maneuvers isn't entirely incompatible with achieving that effect.
The problem with a selection of a few at-will maneuvers is that they must be /flawlessly/ balanced, a little situational, yet entirely different, to achieve a plausibly-varied routine. Otherwise you figure out which one is best and 'spam' it. Then you really look like a video game character - a bad fighting-game character being button-mashed, repeating the same animation until it or it's opponent drops.
That was what undermined 3.x's option-rich feat-based fighter: you'd end up optimized for one maneuver, like Trip, or Leap Attack, or just end up making full attacks every round.

I'm not saying it's a horrible mechanic (although I don't care for it). Just that it only makes sense as an artificial game mechanic that has no in-world justification.

Just like hps, classes, rounds, levels, etc, etc, etc...

...even when you arbitrarily give a game mechanic like that a fixed in-world meaning, you end up just limiting the range of things the game can handle. Vancian magic's the poster boy for that issue...

 

[Blue]

As a scarred veteran of the Edition War, I know that there is a certain percentage of the player base that does not feel that the mechanics should be used that way. They are quite...vocal.

I can dig it. That's not everyone's comfort zone. For me, it's all describing imaginary things anyhow.

Just this morning I was working out a character personality for a porter who is under a were- like curse. Mechanically, it's straight barbarian, but I was planning on describing bestial transformations to his humanoid body when he raged, as well as personality changes to take him from well-meaning bumbler to aggressive CEO, which would also flavor his personality during the moon phases. Working out a real pathos for the character -- cursed but still trying to do good even though his previous life is in shambles. Would have it come out fairly early that he left behind his wife and young daughter for their own good. Imply he was afraid of spreading the curse to them, but once that was established have it leak that he raged out and almost hit his girl when she play-ambushed him during the full moon, and he fled because he didn't know if he would always be able to stop himself. Play up that mingled horror-disgust that he feels for himself deep down and work out a path to redemption.

All of that, just riffing off describing the barbarian's mechanics differently. That's why I see descriptions of mechanics as tools, not as etched-in-steel.