Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

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I would not say that "La mort de l'auteur" is postmodernism. Roland Barthes came largely out of the late Structuralists and influenced Post-Structuralists, but Postmodernism was a different, albeit parallel, movement. Postmodernists =! Structuralists =! Post-Structuralists =! Deconstructionists. (Overlapping? Yes. Identical? No.) I would also argue that the thrust of postmodernism was less about its pop culture sense of "questioning the certainty of our knowledge" or ultimate subjectivity, but, rather, postmodernism is defined by its rejection of meta-narratives. I know Postmodernism commonly gets lumped into "Commie thought," for example, but Communism is a movement within modernism that imposed a meta-narrative (i.e., history is defined as a class struggle) and postmodernists rejected these sort of meta-narratives. The point being is that there is often a lot of misunderstanding of terms around postmodernism, deconstruction, and the death of the author. But Death of the Author is still pretty damn popular in academic circles and even fandom communities (see debates about JK Rowling).

I have zero interest in how best to categorize postmodernism. I was responding to Hussar who invoked it as part of the reason for taking Death of the Author seriously. So I was responding to that. I never mentioned communism in my response. So I am not sure why that is getting brought up. For the record, if given a choice between the company of communists or postmodernists, while I am no communist myself, I'd take the company of communists any day of the week (because they at least make tangible assertions and arguments that you can decipher).

I realize post modernism can mean different things to different people (and to different disciplines). I encountered it as a history student, and for us, it was part of what we called the Linguistic Turn. I am not saying all of postmodernism is about questioning certainty but just going by memory with all the different essays and papers I had to read that were classified at the time as postmodern, questioning certainty certainly seemed like a big part of it. But that was mainly just said as a joke for humorous effect (which I think Hussar got and was why he included a smiley face in his response). If people want to debate what postmodernism really, truly is, I will leave that to other posters. I will admit though, I found I had very little use for postmodernism the more of it I actually read and understood.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
I have zero interest in how best to categorize postmodernism.
I also think that [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] is wrong in attributing "death of the author" to postmodernism, but your post was the one that caught my eye, perhaps unfairly so.

I never mentioned communism in my response. So I am not sure why that is getting brought up.
I never said that you did, and I thought my reasons for bringing it up were apparent enough: it is one example (among many) of a common misconception people have of postmodernists while also illustrating the wider postmodern program of rejecting meta-narratives. It was certainly not to make value judgments about the relative worth of either Communism or Postmodernism. :)
 

I also think that [MENTION=22779]
I never said that you did, and I thought my reasons for bringing it up were apparent enough: it is one example (among many) of a common misconception people have of postmodernists while also illustrating the wider postmodern program of rejecting meta-narratives. It was certainly not to make value judgments about the relative worth of either Communism or Postmodernism. :)

I don't understand why people would confuse communism and postmodernism, but one of the distinguishing features of Postmodernism I remember from when I was in school was just how difficult it was to pin down (and often times its advocates seemed to contradict each other about what postmodernism was exactly). I remember asking different professors in different fields (philosophy, religion, history, communications, and English) for definitions and getting strikingly different answers. All I know, is I am glad I don't have to read another line of Foucault or Derrida.
 

Celebrim

Legend
How do you get to declare them "wrong"?

Just like this, "They are wrong." See how easy that was. If you like, and you didn't get it the first time, I can demonstrate it again.

It's a two way street right? Or, is it a one way street - your way?

Oh sure, they can disagree. They can say I'm wrong. But if they even as much say that I'm wrong, it suggests their argument is something that they don't understand and is unsustainable in the long run. It may be a two way street or it may not be, but you can't have it both ways.

Pretty much any post modern interpretation of any work pretty much says that authorial intent is largely unimportant. I mean, this is English 101 stuff. Any first year university student can tell you the same thing.

Sure. Any freshmen University student can regurgitate the things that they were told uncritically, because that's all you would expect of a first year university student. I don't know what Professor you had for English 101, but they really should have broadened your horizons a bit.

The notion that the author is a sole or even important element in interpretation died decades ago.

No it didn't. I mean, is the best you got are arguments like "everyone knows this" (band wagon) and "it's what they teach in the university" (argument from authority), then I'm really starting to think your university years were wasted.

Like I said, it's just so bizarre to see someone try to claim authority here. I'm frankly baffled that anyone, today, would try to claim authorial intent as a thing. :erm:

I see this is as a confession of your weakness and not mine.

Again, it's a total cop out is the primary reason I reject it. "Oh, I didn't mean that." is the mating cry of the Internet Troll, not someone who actually wants to be taken seriously.

Err... that's your problem? That's the strongest argument you can offer? For one thing, the problem with a statement like "I'm joking" or "I didn't mean that" is that usually you can reasonably determine whether the original statements actually contradict the claims. For another, you've actually offered up two very separate arguments and conflated them. It's one thing to claim that the author has to be able to defend and support his intent by referencing his own words to show that his intent and his statements are congruent. That's all fine and reasonable. An author ought to be able to show that he either expressed himself well or that admit that he expressed himself poorly.

But it's quite another to say that the author's intent is irrelevant to the meaning of his words, or that anyone and everyone's interpretation of what the author said is equally valid regardless of what that interpretation is. The author's intent may not be everything, but it's pretty important and very helpful for understanding what you read and hear. "What do you mean by that?" is very important and very valid question, and a person who consistently argues that they can always answer that question without recourse to research of some sort is a narcissist. And a person who consistently argues that only what they heard is the important part of a conversation is likewise a narcissist.

In my experience no one believes that they can communicate and always perfectly express themselves. No one believes that they can communicate and not be misunderstand. But all persons who communicate do so with the expectation that the can and ought to be understood. If they did not believe that, then they wouldn't bother to try to communicate. And all good readers, because they are good readers, and all good listeners, because they are listeners care deeply about what the person on the other end of the communication is trying to say. If you think you can just make up anything on the basis of what you heard, without referencing what was on the other end, you've conveniently divorced yourself from having any responsibility in the conversation. Communication was attempted, and it failed to be received on your end, because you didn't want to do the work to try to understand.

Speaking as someone who writes with a great deal of passion, if you don't want to understand what I'm saying, don't flatter yourself and do injustice to me by making up crap using my words when you could make up the very same crap using words of your own. Leave my words out of your literary masturbation.

The whole thing cannot be sustained on two grounds - one moral, and the other intellectual.

As a general moral principle, no one should treat with others as they would not want to be treated with themselves. Yet I find in my experience no one who writes or who speaks, who is not offended, or irritated, frustrated or at least amused when the person that they are communicating with misunderstands them. Sometimes they may admit on reflection, that they didn't communicate as clearly as they should have, and so the misunderstanding is understandable. But there comes a point where everyone feels that they've been wrongly used by the hearer. And in my experience no one who writes or speaks is not offended to some degree when a person grossly misconstrues them, misreports their words, and libels them. Everyone wants to be understood and acts as if they ought to be understood. Therefore, everyone ought to extend the same curtesy to the speaker or writer and do their best to understand them according to their intent. Indeed, all of rational debate depends upon this principle of charity.

Further, we cannot intellectually assent to your argument either. For everyone that speaks or writes has some sort of effect that they are trying to create in mind when they do it, and quite often they have a specific idea in mind when they say what they do. They may make that idea imperfectly, and we may see that idea imperfectly but it is there. Authors in particular shed blood and tears putting many words on paper in the hopes of producing an effect and communicating ideas. I put it to you that no one does this with the idea that there intent and meaning doesn't matter. If anyone thought that communicating their intent and meaning was a hopeless pursuit, they wouldn't bother writing.

So for myself, I cannot believe these ideas because I see no one with the courage of their convictions to act as if they were true. I see people willing to prioritize their own readings and meanings for those of others, but if you talk to these people and test them by going way out in left field and misconstruing them, they argue and debate with you in full hypocrisy because with respect to their own words they do think that their intent matters. It could truly be that somewhere out there is some one who sincerely believes this crap and has the courage of their convictions to actually put it into practice, but if there is we shall never hear form them. Personally though, I find any idea that is so ridiculous that it can only exist as a mental exercise and not only can it not be put into practice, but no one actually does put it into practice, to unworthy to spend more than the time it takes to recognize how ridiculous it is. I consider those that teach the young to think that only the reader's understanding matters no more than charlatans.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yeah, my African-African friends - former grad students mostly - loved Black Panther as much as I did; I'm sure these were major reasons.
My first generation Diaspora internet friends loved the film, including the usage of traditional costume and weaponry elements in a futuristic setting, and the fact that Eric is right in his grievances, but wrong in his goal. He is someone who could have been a Good Guy, and T’Challa is so much someone who could have been very bad, and they are such perfect fools.

IME, it’s almoat exclusively white folks interpreting the film the way certain posters here seem to have done.

In the long run, "kill them because they're going to destroy the world" gets more traction with more people than "kill them because they're green and green people are going to destroy the world."

Even if someone is looking for a simple game of "kill the orc" you can just as quickly ascribe an evil motivation "these are fanatical orc cultists" and never even show a "good orc" and get the same game without the genocidal overtones.

Also, if you start off playing "whack an orc" and transition into something more, that teeeeny bit of effort leaves your world with a lot of room for better content, instead of saddling your world with the idea that "green people must die".

My best friend’s world features orcs who were bred by pseudo nazis from goblins and humans, to make the perfect soldier. They were strong, fast, unrelenting, completely disciplined, and possessed of no cultural loyalties to confuse their purpose.

They were so effective that the holy empire they went to war with invented Warforged, and were shocked when they seemed possess souls.

And then the orcs realized they were stronger than their masters, and a war between nations became a war of Orcs against everyone else. These days, 15 years after that war ended, the orcs control the Northern Churtaine Steppe, and seem content with that for now.

I find stories like that much more fun than “classic” marauding orcs.
 

Hussar

Legend
/snip
This is a straw man. No one is granting the author power to tell you what to think. I am not even saying other intrpeations of a work can't be of value. I am just saying authorial intent, in my view, exists, can be deciphered to an extent, and is probably one of the more important aspects of a work. But acknowledging all that, doesn't mean the author can tell me what to think. I can still think the author's work is terrible. Acting as if intent doesn't matter though, it ignores the whole reason the person created the thing in the first place. And that matters a lot because it helps explain the historical context. Obviously that isn't the end of the conversation though. There is intent, but there is also impact. And impact is important too.

Ummm...

Celebrim said:
Just like this, "They are wrong." See how easy that was. If you like, and you didn't get it the first time, I can demonstrate it again.

Oh sure, they can disagree. They can say I'm wrong. But if they even as much say that I'm wrong, it suggests their argument is something that they don't understand and is unsustainable in the long run. It may be a two way street or it may not be, but you can't have it both ways.

There's someone right there telling me that I'm either flat out wrong or not understanding his point, either way, it's not possible for my interpretation to be right. Would you like to take back the strawman thing now [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION]?
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
My first generation Diaspora internet friends loved the film, including the usage of traditional costume and weaponry elements in a futuristic setting, and the fact that Eric is right in his grievances, but wrong in his goal. He is someone who could have been a Good Guy, and T’Challa is so much someone who could have been very bad, and they are such perfect fools.

IME, it’s almoat exclusively white folks interpreting the film the way certain posters here seem to have done.
Which way is that? Not asking you to point out posters, just clarify which interpretation of the film in here seems prevalent among the Caucasians you know.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's noticeable that WoTC adventures especially in 4e era on moved very much to having Demon Cultists as the enemy - ideological, not racial opponents. I did something similar in my Wilderlands campaign
Since the late 80s I've mostly used either religious/cultist or political opponents (sometimes combining the two), rather than more traditional "humanoids". My 4e game had hints of the latter, but even there the goblins and hobgoblins were framed in political/religious terms (Bane-ites) and in some cases surrendered and hence were spared (and one shocking moment at the table was when one of the PCs murdered two surrendered hobgoblins in an act of unilateral vengeance). And the gnolls were demon cultists.

I certainly got the impression the Director was pretty sympathetic to Killmonger's 'Black Hitler' position - but I also thought that this sympathetic portrayal was what made him a powerful villain, as opposed to the usual Hollywood Nazi stereotypes. You see the same effect with Magneto sometimes.
I've heard plenty of similar rhetoric from white Neo-Nazis - everyone else really thinks like us, we just need to wake them up - so I found Killmonger perfectly credible as a Hitler-esque villain. I agree the film gave him a lot of leeway but I don't think it fully validated his position.
The comparison to Magneto is (in my view) highly salient - I have a (Black) friend who sees Magneto as the real hero of the X-Men movies (though sometimes hard-done by by the script writers), and who was disappointed in the different treatment meted out to Killmonger (ie death rather than the possibility of validation).

The idea that the film is somehow wronging the African diaspora by implying that they would resist racism if only they had the resources/capacity to do so is not one that I've come across either in personal conversation with people of colour, or in the commentary I've read on the film.
 

5ekyu

Hero
So I see people online claiming that orcs (or drow or any other savage humanoid race) often unconsciously represent cruel stereotypes of people of color and promote a colonialist narrative. I also see plenty of people claiming that orcs do not and never have represented racial minorities, and that even suggesting such is itself racist. This question is very much politicized. How much truth is there to this assumption? Are there any academic analyses of such comparisons? Is there an ironclad argument either way?
Huh... late to the party but werent orcs ariginslly in LotR z dur on communism? Political baiting, not race baiting?

I remember one of the first reviews of StarTrek: Next Gen which concluded "Klingons are no longer slur at communists, but against african-americans."

But, as for what happens "in gaming" mostly anything happens in gaming somewhere.

Me, I have used historical political and societal models for part of the foundations for NPCs many times. But usually, its just one seed among many growing into that NPC culture's characterization.
 

5ekyu

Hero
My first generation Diaspora internet friends loved the film, including the usage of traditional costume and weaponry elements in a futuristic setting, and the fact that Eric is right in his grievances, but wrong in his goal. He is someone who could have been a Good Guy, and T’Challa is so much someone who could have been very bad, and they are such perfect fools.

IME, it’s almoat exclusively white folks interpreting the film the way certain posters here seem to have done.



My best friend’s world features orcs who were bred by pseudo nazis from goblins and humans, to make the perfect soldier. They were strong, fast, unrelenting, completely disciplined, and possessed of no cultural loyalties to confuse their purpose.

They were so effective that the holy empire they went to war with invented Warforged, and were shocked when they seemed possess souls.

And then the orcs realized they were stronger than their masters, and a war between nations became a war of Orcs against everyone else. These days, 15 years after that war ended, the orcs control the Northern Churtaine Steppe, and seem content with that for now.

I find stories like that much more fun than “classic” marauding orcs.
Hmmm... imagining an off-shoot...

Ages later, after the War-forged and the Orcs both turned on their creators, you have a perpetual war between orcs and War-forged still going on with a more cyber-punk blasted landscape and a bit of meat vs metal thrown in with nomadic bands of survivors of the other races.
 

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