Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Lanefan]

“*grrrrrrr* You there! Know that I am Kursk Gorespear of the Pieguard Tribe. Unhand that pastry...or I will unhand you!”

**Unhands pastry by throwing it at orc's face in an attempt to temporarily blind it while I flee**

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm not questioning your character or your good faith. I do think that there is a lot of value into looking inward and asking why we question things.
.

Can you understand why it appears that way to me? A lot of the questions and responses I am getting (including your's) are an awful lot like "Maybe you should ask yourself why you don't care as much about babies dying as having evil orcs in your game."

 

[billd91]

So, the argument is that it was cool language, so we should forgive the fact that it would add to the unfortunate sexual objectifying of women that thousands of 12 years olds were exposed to?

And how about the women well over 12, for whom that was just one more element of objectification that kept them out of an awesome hobby? For whom it added to the cultural bias of gamers against women? You want to tell them "You aren't 12, so all the talk of prostitutes in the game is something you should ignore, 'cause the language is neat-o!"

'Cause Gygax couldn't have put his cool language into *something else*?

Or we can recognize that adult material (in this case prostitution) is something that might realistically appear in a fantasy town, that a few words of description can substantially change the nature of the character encountered, and humor can target adults even in works a 12 year old might read. Aside from the use of description, it’s not like the random harlot table runs throughout the book like slavery and southern apologetics do in Gone with the Wind

 

[S'mon]

I don't think everything needs to be boiled down to the suitability of a 12 year old - whether boy or girl.

When my sister was 12 she was reading those 'teen' magazines - with vastly more explicit sexual content than even the most lurid of pulps, never mind the 1e DMG! I think that what we dads are comfy with is more the issue.

 

[S'mon]

Double

 

[Umbran]

When my sister was 12 she was reading those 'teen' magazines - with vastly more explicit sexual content than even the most lurid of pulps, never mind the 1e DMG!

And, there's a strong argument that, historically, those have also been damaging to our culture's approach to women. "My 12 year old read worse stuff," doesn't actually say that any of it is okay! The presence of something worse does not justify the presence of something that isn't good.

I mean, would you say... "There's a bowl of cyanide. Since that is on the table, it is okay for me to eat this salad contaminated with E. coli!" Probably not.

 

[S'mon]

And, there's a strong argument that, historically, those have also been damaging to our culture's approach to women. "My 12 year old read worse stuff," doesn't actually say that any of it is okay! The presence of something worse does not justify the presence of something that isn't good.

I mean, would you say... "There's a bowl of cyanide. Since that is on the table, it is okay for me to eat this salad contaminated with E. coli!" Probably not.

I'm sure they are worse. I just doubt the harlot table will do any harm, other than embarrass her dad.

 

[pemerton]

In the end, you have to make peace with certain things. I remain a huge H.P. Lovecraft fan,* and I always will be.

<snip>

But I start by listening and acknowledging the issues (whether its in the text, with the author, or both)

I agree with this. In my case it's not HPL, who I find has some interesting ideas but whose writing I find almost unreadable.

But I have 4 volumes of REH Conan and Kull on my shelves, and I re-read them from time to time; and I re-read JRRT quit often. They shape my thinking about the fantasy genre. But there can be no denying the racist etc elements.

For what it's worth, I also love Wagner's Ring Cycle.

 

[pemerton]

Or we can recognize that adult material (in this case prostitution) is something that might realistically appear in a fantasy town, that a few words of description can substantially change the nature of the character encountered, and humor can target adults even in works a 12 year old might read. Aside from the use of description, it’s not like the random harlot table runs throughout the book like slavery and southern apologetics do in Gone with the Wind

When my sister was 12 she was reading those 'teen' magazines - with vastly more explicit sexual content than even the most lurid of pulps, never mind the 1e DMG! I think that what we dads are comfy with is more the issue.

I think it's not just comfort of dads. There are things to be said about teen magazines (is it still Dolly?), but they're different from the harlot table.

Is it humorous to distignuish Saucy Tarts from Wanton Wenches from Brazen Strumpets from Slovenly Trolls? And who's in on the joke, and who's being made fun of?

This goes back to my comment up thread about romance and sex in games - I've got nothing against it, but does it have to involve primarily, or even exclusively, harlots and evil clerics with specially modified plate mail? I assert that that is a somewhat distorted presentation of the issue, particularly oriented to cater to a certain male fantasy (I'll say tentatively along the lines of "they want it, but they won't give it to us, but we'll take it from them" - I'm going to flag [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] for this because he may want to moderate it for board rules reasons).

I'm sure they are worse. I just doubt the harlot table will do any harm, other than embarrass her dad.

For me it's not so much about harm - although internatlisation of certain self-conceptions is a real thing - but about what it suggests about the work and those who enjoy/expound it. (Which I guess is what you are calling embarrassment.)

It suggest the work is puerile and prurient pandering to the male fantasy I've just described.

 

[Hussar]

I feel like you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying people disagree on what tropes are racist or colonialist, and I am wary of where that bar is being set. Further I think some of what people are identifying as colonialist or racist is only so under a deep microscope. I think those kinds of tropes are very different from more pronounced and clear examples of racism. It is like when critics used to call all kinds of movies fascist (just because the hero used a gun or something). To me it feels like we can lose tropes that are not really a problem and in the process diminish the power of important words like Racism.

It seems to me that you want people to be able to present a clear cut dividing line. "If the work has X, Y or Z, then it is unacceptable, anything else is fair game".

That's unrealistic. Judgement will always be fuzzy, messy and ultimately subjective. Judgement will change from person to person, year to year, sometimes day to day. Things that were culturally acceptable even a year or two ago will no longer be. It happens. It's constantly changing.

I mean, I'm running my first 5e adventure path - Dragon Heist. Now, DH is more a setting guide than adventure, to be fair (180+ named NPC's in a 5 level adventure ) . But, as an older gamer who is perhaps a bit behind the times, I did find the rather large number of non-binary and LGBT characters in the module to be a bit surprising. I'm just not used to seeing that in a module.

Does that mean that all the modules I used in the past were "bad"? No, of course not. There is very little "bad". There is only "doing better".