Do the PCs ever die in these playtest reports?

[Fifth Element]

Sorry, didn't realize I wasn't allowed to use the phrase twice. Just did a quick search of my blog, and only came up with two instances, but that's just a phrase I use to describe a grueling combat.

This is ENWorld, dude. We have entire threads devoted to particular words and phrases used by designers in casual conversations.

I'm only half joking, really.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Sorry, didn't realize I wasn't allowed to use the phrase twice. Just did a quick search of my blog, and only came up with two instances, but that's just a phrase I use to describe a grueling combat.

If the expression wasn't plastered everywhere 4e combat is being talked about, then the descriptor might have meaning, and I wouldn't have been bothered by it. At this point, it has become to be overused rather bland - almost every 4e combat I've read about has been described as a "knock-down, drag-out" fight, or similar.

 

[Fifth Element]

If the expression wasn't plastered everywhere 4e combat is being talked about, then the descriptor might have meaning, and I wouldn't have been bothered by it. At this point, it has become to be overused rather bland - almost every 4e combat I've read about has been described as a "knock-down, drag-out" fight, or similar.

I think complaining about words & phrases used by the designers is overused and becoming rather bland. Every new blog post or playtest report has someone complaining about this word or that.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I think complaining about words & phrases used by the designers is overused and becoming rather bland. Every new blog post or playtest report has someone complaining about this word or that.

After a quick perusal of the boards, I can see why you are so snarky. While irritated that it is directed at someone who hasn't posted much on the 4e boards, I will retract my previous comment here, and instead attempt to make a constructive discussion.

First off - for the most part, and correct me if I'm wrong, what we are reading is written by people who are at least part-time professional writers. Of my expectations for such folk, one of them is that they are able to use their chosen language to convey precise concepts. This is understandably difficult when discussing a fantasy game, as we all have differing ideas of what certain things mean, but surely a professional writer would be able to make something that is relatively clear to a vast majority of the gaming population.

My issue with the phrase "knock-down, drag-out," is that it has - at least in my mind - a very clear and precise use. That is, the phrase would be used to describe a fight that, at least until late into the combat, has no clear victor, and that success must be snapped from the jaws of defeat with a single snap decision, or other such appropriate cliche. My understanding is that a fight that is described using these phrases is very difficult and very time-consuming.

My problem is that this phrase seems to be used to describe a good deal of 4e combats. This, in combination with the idea that combats should be making use of lots of terrain and all sorts of other miscellany, leads me to believe that 4e combats will be a major pain to run, despite all statements to the contrary.

Basically, what I am getting at is that, while these big, nasty combats were interesting at first, it would also be nice to see some normal combats, some regular fights with some regular critters that don't pose much of a threat. Just some normalcy would be nice. I don't know about you, but sometimes, a fist-fight in an alley is just that, and doesn't need to be spiced up with an erupting volcano in the background, or what-have-you.

 

[the Jester]

Character death is NOT FUN...

...in your game.

In many others, it might be quite fun. In my campaign, there is a notoriously high lethality rate, yet my players all have tons and tons of fun (or so they say), and I can't recall the last time a player dropped out because of style/play issues instead of scheduling/personality conflict issues.

As a player, I don't mind dying; I mean, yeah, it's a drag, but as long as it's a fair death, I am okay with it.

Edit: And by fair, I don't mean that I have to make bad decisions or knowingly walk into danger. By "unfair" I mean that if I'm one of four people in a 3rd level party, we shouldn't have to fight a cadre of sixteen frost giants and an old white dragon (absent serious extenuating circumstances). We would have no way to win and no way to escape from the kind of ranged beat down that they could put on us. One frost giant? Sounds like time to run away. That's an unwinnable but reasonable and fair encounter in my book.

 

[pemerton]

If the expression wasn't plastered everywhere 4e combat is being talked about, then the descriptor might have meaning, and I wouldn't have been bothered by it. At this point, it has become to be overused rather bland - almost every 4e combat I've read about has been described as a "knock-down, drag-out" fight, or similar.

Maybe that's because they all were like that. Maybe it's a design feature of 4e to produce such fights.

What I have felt from alot of these playtests, is that while, yes, there may be a tad fewer deaths then in 3.5e. There is alot more close-calls, though close-calls without that meaning you managed to meek out a save-or-die roll. But more, they spent their resources, were beaten up badly, but managed to snuff out the enemy before they themselves were killed off.

Exactly.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I've read of at least one death. In that case the PC was returned to life so it wouldn't bollux up the playtest. Which does seem strange, surely he should've stayed dead to test how the system handles this.

DM: Okay, you take 20 damage.
Player: I'm dead.
DM: Oh, cool. We haven't had a chance to playtest that yet.
Player: Right on. So, what now.
DM: Well, you're dead.
Player: Okay. ... Am I still dead?
DM: Yup.
Player: What about now?
DM: Yup.
Player: What about now?
DM: Yup.
Player: What about now?
DM: Yup.

(much later)

DM: Well, they've certainly got realistic rules for being dead.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Yes and no. I agree that is how many of the playtests read, but they are meant to be captivating. I am curious how the per encounter mechanic will work in actual play in regards to death and near death. Running away has always been a part of DnD and none of the playtesters really seems to do it.

You can't exactly pick up and run when you are on level three of the dungeon but you can run when you're fighting a thug on a street corner. When do you "recharge" your per encounter abilities to simply run back 5 minutes later to slay the adversary who almost nearly killed you.

Well, I plan on using my "Per-Encounter" abilities when I DM, if they don't state specifically what the time-limit is, as "Per-Scene" ideas. So somewhat, like with the Storyteller system. Where after a scene has come to a conclusion then the power is recharged.

In your example, running away and sneaking back to the thug, be one scene. Running away, going back to the inn to heal and restock. Then going back to face the thug, be separate scenes.

Or if he ran away, was running for quite sometime, bashing people away from him as he ran away. At which time the guards stop him, he tries to fight, this would also be a new scene.

I think this could cause some interesting scenarios in combat. Where the players do they risk using their per-encounter abilities or hold-off, incase reinforcements show up, etc.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

DM: Okay, you take 20 damage.
(much later)

DM: Well, they've certainly got realistic rules for being dead.

ROFL!

 

[KrazyHades]

I've read of at least one death. In that case the PC was returned to life so it wouldn't bollux up the playtest. Which does seem strange, surely he should've stayed dead to test how the system handles this. For example how quickly can a new PC be generated.

They probably (hopefully) have other playtests dealing with issues like that. If your playtest is trying to focus on a few select areas that particular day, having a dead PC might throw off the math.