Do We Really Need Half-Elves and Half-Orcs?

[delericho]

As others have said, we don't need half-races. Indeed, we don't need any particular race - even humans aren't actually required.

Should we keep them? Well, that depends on the setting/campaign/group. There's no signs of a new edition, so they'll not be getting dropped from the game any time soon.

(Of course, if we were talking science fiction, especially anything wants to claim and sort of realism, this would be a rather different discussion. But in fantasy, that's not the same issue.)

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Tieflings have been around for centuries, and are intelligent and charismatic. They aren’t going to not make it into history books/stories, and we know from the phb that they aren’t all evil.

What are you talking about? D&D hasn't even been around for centuries...

I never said that they are "all evil", but if you would bother to actually read my post, look in the PHB, and read the description of Tieflings, you would understand exactly why I wrote what I did. Since you don't seem willing to do this, let me put it here.

"To be greeted with stares and whispers, to suffer violence and insult on the street, to see mistrust and fear in every eye: this is the lot of the tiefling." For further evidence, read the section on Mutual Mistrust. While the Tiefling's heritage doesn't mean it must be evil (one of the Tieflings in my game is Chaotic Good, actually...), I simply warned my players about the reaction they are likely to get, which comes directly from the PHB. Dragonborn follow a similar bend.

We dont need Forgotten Realms novel characters to have a sensible history.

Well, then, what "history" are you pulling from? As I said, those are the only two I have read about so far. I am sure there are other novels, fanwork, etc. about Tieflings, but unless you have a source for your history you have nothing to base it on.

You can make any assumptions you want, but nothing about any dnd 5e phb race necessitated them being shunned or mistreated in every town the go to.

Sure. Nothing necessitates it since every DM can run the game as he or she wants, but the evidence quoted from the PHB supports initial reactions of shunning and mistrust.

At any rate, if you choose to ignore the text in the PHB, that is your choice. But this thread is about half-races, so I am not going to debate the issue with you further as this is not the place for it. Have a nice day.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Pretty sure it's half-orcs and not orcs because orcs would be naturally evil aligned which is a killer for most PC parties.

Anyway, Umbran already said anything that's needed to be said. Don't remove anything unless you have a good reason to do so.

 

[Ymdar]

I allow all races published in the book, even monster races. I do however warn my players that if they play drow, orcs, or any monster races, peasants will reach for their pitchforks or run away and dispatch monster hunting parties against them which could make the life of the entire team more difficult. They didn’t bring any so far.
On the other hand I also warn them if they are the only tabaxi in town they will likely not be able to have a low profile because they will always be that one tabaxi (or dragonborn/tiefling/goliath for that sense) in the area.

 

[delericho]

Pretty sure it's half-orcs and not orcs because orcs would be naturally evil aligned which is a killer for most PC parties.

This. And, honestly, I prefer it that way - it gives room both for the "orcs are just another culture, like Klingons" and the "orcs are inherently evil monsters" approaches. Making them a PC option in the PHB excludes the latter.

 

[Mercule]

Actually it makes perfect sense to me that on average people who are stigmatized would have developed social skills to compensate for their stigmas - class clowns, over-achievers, people who are considered “hard-nosed” or very imposing because they had to stand up for themselves to avoid getting bullied constantly. Whereas half-elves might have developed the “people-pleasing” mechanisms to survive due to average physiques, half-orcs would rely more on intimidation and physical imposition to ward off bullies.

That's a fair statement, in theory, but is questionable in application. In worlds where half-elves are marginalized, they should start with a penalty to social interactions -- something like the 1E racial animosity tables, if you're a sadist. The minimum penalty you could really apply is a -1, which is what the +2 to charisma grants. So, the half-elf becomes a wash disguised as a bonus. If you remove the penalty for normal interactions, you've also removed the rationale for the bonus. Mechanically, you're actually better off hand-waving it and saying, "Half-elves are marginalized, but they've learned to work around it, so normal charisma. Go roleplay." Then give them a real stat bonus. Unless, of course, you're going to pull in Nietzsche and say that half-elves have been tempered by their adversity and done more than just offset, but that's a bit too deep for my tastes in D&D.

Settings like Eberron (and probably the Realms) that are fairly cosmopolitan and attach little stigma to PHB races, it could be argued that half-elves get the bonus to charisma by virtue of playing to the ideal of both races -- which is probably closer to the meta truth about why people play half-elves to begin with. That's a significant shift in the tone of D&D since AD&D and earlier, but it'd work. The lore just needs to catch up. I'm not a fan of structuring a race to be a Mary Sue lightning rod, so I find that explanation to be extremely unsatisfactory.

Either way, having a normal charisma seems best, to me.

 

[PrimevalSeeker]

I don't have a problem with half- races and whether they are included in the game depends on the DM/story. Mechanically though i think they could have worked better as human subraces, since the other half of the name implies human heritage.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Half-elves are present in the Norse myths, so they belong the same places as elves do.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

If I was in charge of 5e, I think I would have made them human subraces (probably elf-blooded, orc-blooded, and this could easily be expanded to other races). If humans had interesting features, there could be human-blooded elves, dwarves, etc. too, but right now the best that would be is "you are an elf that gets a feat at 1st level."

I think I would be even more inclined to make tieflings, aasimar (and I really like the 5e version), and genasai be subraces (with versions for any race that has a subrace). The different races would get different things based on how important subrace was to the race (maybe elf and dwarf gods discourage mixing with outsiders).

 

[billd91]

That's a fair statement, in theory, but is questionable in application. In worlds where half-elves are marginalized, they should start with a penalty to social interactions -- something like the 1E racial animosity tables, if you're a sadist. The minimum penalty you could really apply is a -1, which is what the +2 to charisma grants. So, the half-elf becomes a wash disguised as a bonus. If you remove the penalty for normal interactions, you've also removed the rationale for the bonus. Mechanically, you're actually better off hand-waving it and saying, "Half-elves are marginalized, but they've learned to work around it, so normal charisma. Go roleplay." Then give them a real stat bonus. Unless, of course, you're going to pull in Nietzsche and say that half-elves have been tempered by their adversity and done more than just offset, but that's a bit too deep for my tastes in D&D.
<snip>

Either way, having a normal charisma seems best, to me.

Except for the other effects of having developed a good Charisma...
If the half-elves have had to develop a stronger personality to overcome their social marginalization, that would extend to the other aspects of their character in which strength of personality matters - and that's any mechanic influenced by the Charisma stat. Interpreting their Charisma as "normal" would negate that entirely reasonable downstream effect.