D&D 5E Do you allow Bladesingers to cast Mending, Shillelagh or Magic Stone as part of the attack action?

[billd91]

It's not preventing these cantrips from ever being used in combat; it only restricts the ones that can be cast while also swinging a weapon. This is a tempest in a teapot.

Nobody was ever implying they weren't prevented from being used in combat, just that applying some reasoning about whether it's technically an attack action, an attack, or non-attack is probably misplaced.
And you're right, it largely is a tempest in a teapot. Particularly when, as we've identified further up the thread, that the only cantrip that ever takes more than a single action (bonus or not) is mending. And mending is ultimately pretty innocuous.

 

[CleverNickName]

Nobody was ever implying they weren't prevented from being used in combat, just that applying some reasoning about whether it's technically an attack action, an attack, or non-attack is probably misplaced.
And you're right, it largely is a tempest in a teapot. Particularly when, as we've identified further up the thread, that the only cantrip that ever takes more than a single action (bonus or not) is mending. And mending is ultimately pretty innocuous.

I'll say. I'm struggling to imagine any kind of situation where there's an urgent need to cast mending a half-dozen times in the middle of combat, and it cannot wait sixty seconds, and I absolutely must do it while also swinging a sword. All I'm coming up with are weird exploits involving a custom creature/sidekick that can be "healed" with a mending spell, or a player trying to ignore the special abilities of rust monsters and certain oozes.

My post makes me sound more interested in this topic than I actually am. In all seriousness: if this ever came up at my table, I imagine it would look a lot like this:

DM: "You can't do that."
That Guy: "But the rules say..."
Everyone else at the table: "Dude, we talked about this. Stop trying to break the game."
That Guy: (grumble)

Still, it's interesting to talk about.

 

[billd91]

My post makes me sound more interested in this topic than I actually am. In all seriousness: if this ever came up at my table, I imagine it would look a lot like this:

DM: "You can't do that."
That Guy: "But the rules say..."
Everyone else at the table: "Dude, we talked about this. Stop trying to break the game."
That Guy: (grumble)

Everyone should have a table like that.

 

[Incenjucar]

It's cute to joke about it at the table, but anyone actually trying to do it at the table is going to be making me wonder if I know someone else who would like to play.

 

[Dausuul]

I'll say. I'm struggling to imagine any kind of situation where there's an urgent need to cast mending a half-dozen times in the middle of combat, and it cannot wait sixty seconds, and I absolutely must do it while also swinging a sword. All I'm coming up with are weird exploits involving a custom creature/sidekick that can be "healed" with a mending spell, or a player trying to ignore the special abilities of rust monsters and certain oozes.

It would be some very rare scenario, probably involving a feature of the environment; e.g., there is a door with a broken lock which the party desperately needs to close and lock before a boss monster comes through.

In which case, the bladesinger player realizing "Wait, I can cast mending at attack speed!" is an awesome play and one that I would not want to squelch.

 

[Maxperson]

It would be some very rare scenario, probably involving a feature of the environment; e.g., there is a door with a broken lock which the party desperately needs to close and lock before a boss monster comes through.

In which case, the bladesinger player realizing "Wait, I can cast mending at attack speed!" is an awesome play and one that I would not want to squelch.

I'm curious if you would also allow the Sorcerer to quicken Mending down to a bonus action in the above scenario.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm curious if you would also allow the Sorcerer to quicken Mending down to a bonus action in the above scenario.

Quicken Spell a) specifies that it can only be used with a 1-action spell, and b) is not limited to cantrips, so the potential for abuse is much greater.

Even so, I would consider allowing the sorcerer to Quicken a "limited" version of mending, probably with a 1-minute duration. But since this would be a house rule in the PCs' favor, it has a higher bar to clear than allowing the bladesinger ability to work as written.

 

[Maxperson]

Quicken Spell a) specifies that it can only be used with a 1-action spell, and b) is not limited to cantrips, so the potential for abuse is much greater.

That wasn't the question. I asked if you under the scenario you described would allow an ability that was specifically designed to speed up the casting of spell, and can speed up the most powerful(9th level spells), to speed up a mere cantrip from 1 minute to a bonus action or even 1 action?

It would make no sense to me to deny an ability that as you say is much more powerful AND designed to speed up spells, while allowing a weaker ability that is not designed to speed up spells to speed up up that cantrip.

Even so, I would consider allowing the sorcerer to Quicken a "limited" version of mending, probably with a 1-minute duration. But since this would be a house rule in the PCs' favor, it has a higher bar to clear than allowing the bladesinger ability to work as written.

See, to me if the Bladesinger can do it you(general you) sort of have to allow the Sorcerer to do it just as well, if not better(bonus action) or the world verisimilitude has been shattered. At that point you(again the general you) are just using rule of cool to allow whatever to work whenever without anything having to make sense.

I do agree with you, though, about the potential for abuse to be greater with the Sorcerer ability, which to me is even more reason to deny the Bladesinger.

 

[billd91]

See, to me if the Bladesinger can do it you(general you) sort of have to allow the Sorcerer to do it just as well, if not better(bonus action) or the world verisimilitude has been shattered. At that point you(again the general you) are just using rule of cool to allow whatever to work whenever without anything having to make sense.

Literally, no, you don't. The bladesinger's ability is never going to exceed the power of a cantrip so letting the ability to cast a mending slide through is already fairly tightly bound. And as far as verisimilitude goes, the bladesinger's ability isn't the same as the sorcerer's quickening. They don't have to be logically bound together at all. That's part of the nature of magic in the first place.

 

[Maxperson]

Literally, no, you don't. The bladesinger's ability is never going to exceed the power of a cantrip so letting the ability to cast a mending slide through is already fairly tightly bound. And as far as verisimilitude goes, the bladesinger's ability isn't the same as the sorcerer's quickening.

The bolded is a Red Herring. It's not relevant at all. This isn't about balance. It's about what makes sense and about what is written. What is written does not specifically speed up Mending. What is written is part of an attack, not a non-attack. What makes sense is for an ability to speed up magic so powerful that it can bend and create new reality, to also be able to speed up a cantrip that an ability not designed to speed up magic can do(if you allow the Bladesinger ability to work on mending).

They don't have to be logically bound together at all. That's part of the nature of magic in the first place.

And this is a cop out. Just because it's magic doesn't mean that magic shouldn't make any sense.