D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[Faolyn]

It seems that it's possible that one of the reasons that the background feature is being objected to is the idea that the player will just make up a contact (or a ship) on the fly and then force it into the DM's established setting.

There are DMs and tables that allow that sort of thing (and in which case, those DMs don't usually establish the details of the setting beyond a loose framework) but it's far from the usual way that D&D is played. I don't think @Faolyn or @Hriston was ever advocating for this sort of play.

What I would do is, if the player said "I want to find a ship to sail on and use my background to help me do so," I'd say something like, "how are you doing this?" Then one of the following may occur:

One: The player may then say they're going up to the captain or first mate and trying to use their nautical knowledge to sound impressive. That's a Persuasion check. (Someone who does not have the sailor background or at least proficiency in sea vessels would have a higher DC and/or obviously wouldn't be able to use their proficiency bonus, or may have to roll Deception vs. Insight with a bonus for the captain).

Two: The player may tell me that their cousin Two-Eyed Bob the Sailor once manned a ship that docked in this port often. There would the above-mentioned Persuasion rolls, but with an added wrinkle of me getting to decide how the ship's crew felt about Two-Eyed Bob (colored by whatever they've previously said about this cousin--and if this is a brand-new cousin they just invented, then I get to decide[1]). I might roll a die and decide whether they liked him based on the result (like, the higher the number, the more they liked him). In which case, there's a chance of backfire. I would allow this for non-sailors as well, but probably with penalties to the roll.

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[1] This also depends on how out-of-character Two-Eyed Bob is. If the PC had said they come from a line of sailors and pirates, then OK. Two-Eyed Bob is plausible. If they had said they had run away from the farm their family had been working for generations to become a sailor, I'd say, "yeah, no, that's totally contradictory to everything else you've said. However, I can't imagine any of my players actually trying to pull this. Everyone at my table is a reasonable person.
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Three: The player may tell me that they worked on a particular ship that docked here. In which case, we have a conversation about the ship and why they left it. This may involve them inventing some details (probably in the form of noodle incidents) that had previously never come up.

If they had previously established that they only sailed on the Inner Sea and they were currently on the coast of the South Sea, then we'd have to have some discussion about how that boat got from the Inner Sea and the South Sea. It's entirely possible that we'd then establish a new fact about the world (a connecting river, a canal, something else). It's also possible that the player would realize there was no way the ship could have moved seas (see above re: reasonable players).

IME, these sorts of conversations take maybe 5 minutes or so, 10 max, which is not an unreasonable amount of time and is certainly far less time than we had to pause the game yesterday when it was interrupted by Toddler Surprise Attack (did you know that if you put your hands over your ears, it works just like daddy's headphones and you can hear what all the other players are saying?)

Four: If I felt like it, I could just have the ship they used to work on, right there in dock. How did it get there? Good question! Want to get on and find out?

 

[Faolyn]

There's this fantasy series I like where every time the protagonist needs a ship to go someplace, the same captain happens to be in port, forcing him to continuously elaborate on the (fake) backstory he gave the guy the first time they met.

It eventually turns out this massive coincidence is actually the result of divine meddling.

Now obviously that's campaign dependent, but there are gods in D&D who canonically do meddle on that level, so it's certainly not out of the question for such things to happen.

Reminds me of the old Groo comics, where Groo frequently runs into his old Captain Ahax, who is always on the move to get as far away from Groo as he possible can.

 

[James Gasik]

Reminds me of the old Groo comics, where Groo frequently runs into his old Captain Ahax, who is always on the move to get as far away from Groo as he possible can.

I mean, have you met Groo? That's the most sane course of action to take!

 

[James Gasik]

What I would do is, if the player said "I want to find a ship to sail on and use my background to help me do so," I'd say something like, "how are you doing this?" Then one of the following may occur:

One: The player may then say they're going up to the captain or first mate and trying to use their nautical knowledge to sound impressive. That's a Persuasion check. (Someone who does not have the sailor background or at least proficiency in sea vessels would have a higher DC and/or obviously wouldn't be able to use their proficiency bonus, or may have to roll Deception vs. Insight with a bonus for the captain).

Two: The player may tell me that their cousin Two-Eyed Bob the Sailor once manned a ship that docked in this port often. There would the above-mentioned Persuasion rolls, but with an added wrinkle of me getting to decide how the ship's crew felt about Two-Eyed Bob (colored by whatever they've previously said about this cousin--and if this is a brand-new cousin they just invented, then I get to decide[1]). I might roll a die and decide whether they liked him based on the result (like, the higher the number, the more they liked him). In which case, there's a chance of backfire. I would allow this for non-sailors as well, but probably with penalties to the roll.

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[1] This also depends on how out-of-character Two-Eyed Bob is. If the PC had said they come from a line of sailors and pirates, then OK. Two-Eyed Bob is plausible. If they had said they had run away from the farm their family had been working for generations to become a sailor, I'd say, "yeah, no, that's totally contradictory to everything else you've said. However, I can't imagine any of my players actually trying to pull this. Everyone at my table is a reasonable person.
-----

Three: The player may tell me that they worked on a particular ship that docked here. In which case, we have a conversation about the ship and why they left it. This may involve them inventing some details (probably in the form of noodle incidents) that had previously never come up.

If they had previously established that they only sailed on the Inner Sea and they were currently on the coast of the South Sea, then we'd have to have some discussion about how that boat got from the Inner Sea and the South Sea. It's entirely possible that we'd then establish a new fact about the world (a connecting river, a canal, something else). It's also possible that the player would realize there was no way the ship could have moved seas (see above re: reasonable players).

IME, these sorts of conversations take maybe 5 minutes or so, 10 max, which is not an unreasonable amount of time and is certainly far less time than we had to pause the game yesterday when it was interrupted by Toddler Surprise Attack (did you know that if you put your hands over your ears, it works just like daddy's headphones and you can hear what all the other players are saying?)

Four: If I felt like it, I could just have the ship they used to work on, right there in dock. How did it get there? Good question! Want to get on and find out?

Personally, my experience with backgrounds in 5e has been more "ok, you made characters, great."

We start playing and after who knows how many sessions, something like this occurs:

You've reached the mighty port city of Stormhaven, the Free City. Run by sorcerous families, Stormhaven is a place where anything you can hope to acquire is available, for a price. The map you have leads to a supposedly uncharted island. You'll need to gather information, and find someone who has a ship willing to take you there.

(DM, looking at his notes. "Ok, so, they'll have to make nice with one of the Familias that run the city. There'll be some knowledge checks, but they need access to a library, and not just anyone can walk into them...")

Player A: Hey, my Sorcerer is a Noble! Do you think I could get an audience with one of the Familias?

DM: Oh, uh, yeah, I guess...

Player B: I'm a Sage, so I know where to go to research the info we need!

DM: Ah, I see, well that does make this easier...

Player C: I'm a Sailor! I'll go down to the docks and find us a ship no problem!

(DM looks at his notes for the session, realizes there won't be much adventure in town after all.) "Well, not so fast, maybe this guy has never heard of your noble family before, I mean, you are from another continent..."

 

[Cadence]

Stormhaven is a place where anything you can hope to acquire is available, for a price.

And there we have the use for all of the gold we've collected with no chance to spend it, and a chance to see if the DM remembers how much it is when we just go out to try and buy everything we want

But seriously, the number of short cuts I need to think of is a big part of why I don't DM anything set from say 1980 through non-post apocalyptic sci-fi, or anything with super-heroes, and admire those who do a good job of it.

 

[James Gasik]

And there we have the use for all of the gold we've collected with no chance to spend it, and a chance to see if the DM remembers how much it is when we just go out to try and buy everything we want

But seriously, the number of short cuts I need to think of is a big part of why I don't DM anything set from say 1980 through non-post apocalyptic sci-fi, or anything with super-heroes, and admire those who do a good job of it.

Yeah, the money problem is something I have to work on in my upcoming game (just 8 more days for session 1! I'm terrified and excited, it's been years since I've sat in the big chair!). What to do with loot? But that's kind of a different direction than what's being discussed here.

 

[Cadence]

Reminds me of the old Groo comics, where Groo frequently runs into his old Captain Ahax, who is always on the move to get as far away from Groo as he possible can.

I think a big part of it might be what kind of game folks are trying to run / be in. Is it aiming at something more serious, Fafhrd and the Mouser, Groo, or Toon?

There are things I would have happen in some games in terms of grand coincidences and deus-ex-machina that I would never have happen in another.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So it's a blind choice, and there's no point in the players having this type of background on their character sheet because they can't use them.

?

Of course you can use them. You have skills and a feat, a language and a tool. And you can behave like a commoner or noble etc.

If you chose to be a variant human, you have about the same packet of codified abilites.

 

[Faolyn]

Personally, my experience with backgrounds in 5e has been more "ok, you made characters, great."

We start playing and after who knows how many sessions, something like this occurs:

You've reached the mighty port city of Stormhaven, the Free City. Run by sorcerous families, Stormhaven is a place where anything you can hope to acquire is available, for a price. The map you have leads to a supposedly uncharted island. You'll need to gather information, and find someone who has a ship willing to take you there.

(DM, looking at his notes. "Ok, so, they'll have to make nice with one of the Familias that run the city. There'll be some knowledge checks, but they need access to a library, and not just anyone can walk into them...")

Player A: Hey, my Sorcerer is a Noble! Do you think I could get an audience with one of the Familias?

DM: Oh, uh, yeah, I guess...

Player B: I'm a Sage, so I know where to go to research the info we need!

DM: Ah, I see, well that does make this easier...

Player C: I'm a Sailor! I'll go down to the docks and find us a ship no problem!

(DM looks at his notes for the session, realizes there won't be much adventure in town after all.) "Well, not so fast, maybe this guy has never heard of your noble family before, I mean, you are from another continent..."

Why? You literally tailor-made everything for their backgrounds to count! Why nerf it?

If it really bugs you, just remember that you said everything is available for a price. The nobles will only grant an audience to people who give them impressive gifts. The librarians make a pointed glance at the donation box each time the player asks a question or wants to see a book, or a membership fee in order to get into the restricted section. The ship will take them after they make some repairs, but that takes time since they don't have the gold to expedite those repairs, hint hint.

Or just have a completely unrelated adventure ready for times just like this. One sorcerer sending assassins after another one (and the one they're being sent to also happens to be the one the PC is going to), monsters wandering the streets at night, a sorcerer testing out an illicit spell on the unwitting populace, something like that.

 

[Faolyn]

I think a big part of it might be what kind of game folks are trying to run / be in. Is it aiming at something more serious, Fafhrd and the Mouser, Groo, or Toon?

There are things I would have happen in some games in terms of grand coincidences and deus-ex-machina that I would never have happen in another.

Well, I wouldn't have that same captain just show up in every port... unless that was actually a plot hook of some sort.