Do you study martial arts?

[barsoomcore]

Barsoomcore, if I lived in Canada I'd move to study under you. Your comments on this thread have impressed the hell out of me.

What an impertinent suggestion. Alas, I am woefully unqualified to teach anyone much of anything.

And it's sure easier to to be impressive on a messageboard than in a dojo!

 

[barsoomcore]

Okay, so I've got some time on my hands...

I noticed that almost nobody studies my sword art, iaido.

In case anyone's interested, I wrote an article about iaido

I do! What ryuha are you studying? Most likely it's ZNKF iaido as that's the most common. I learned a variant of that many years back. But KSR teaches, in addition to a multitude of paired weapons forms, a whole set of iaido forms as well. They're quite lovely, much less formal in appearance than ZNKF, more curved lines and forceful blows. Jumping about and hollering in a loud voice. Lots of fun.

Iai is a beautiful thing. A very fine article you wrote on it, too. An excellent introduction to the art.

 

[Erifnogard]

lurk

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Cool Thread.

The eyes can also be fooled, an attack like an axe kick hits on it's return, a lot of people fail to block it (I've seen knock outs resulting from this).

Heh.

Some years back, as a second dan, I was sparring with one of our top instructors (ITF Taekwon-do, New Zealand). From memory, I'd landed a flying back kick earlier in the bout - which I was rather pleased about, since it was rare for me to manage a touch on the guy.

I guess he'd decided to remind me who was boss I saw the axe kick coming - we tend to throw them in an arc-up, straight-down motion, and one of the simplest blocks is to interrupt its motion just before the peak. Most people don't have the strength to power through the block horizontally - all the power in an axe kick is vertical. So the leg drops harmlessly off the block, never coming close to the body.

I saw the axe kick coming, and I blocked it. I blocked it, damnit. And started to counter... FLASH!

His heel bounced off my forehead. Ow.

Instead of dropping, his leg just stayed up, at full vertical extension, until my irritating little block went away... and then he finished the kick.

Seemed frightfully unfair. Legs aren't supposed to work like that

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A) your textbook is wrong (for the textbook should provide you with the most useful manner of performing the form) -- in which case you have discovered a serious deficiency in the style you are studying (hence my irreverent comment about starting your own style)

You know, I'm not certain I agree.

For the most part, I tend to equate "textbook" with "formal". We (ITF) have a literal textbook - Magic Rub is probably intimately familiar with it - General Choi's "Taekwon-Do", the Condensed Encyclopedia (frequently referred to as the Bible), or the more detailed 15-volume Encyclopedia.

I'm personally far from a hard-core pragmatist. I fit much better into the "artistic" category. My own specialities are Patterns (tul, our equivalent of forms or kata) - particularly the teaching thereof - and Taekwon-do's forte of fancy multiple flying kicks (ridiculously impractical for self-defence, I'm the first to admit, but fun nonetheless). Which is not to say that I eschew practical self defence, or breaking, or sparring, but formal technique is what interests me most.

But the formal method is not what I'd use in a self-defence situation, particularly for hand techniques. I agree with Wolvorine that a formal punch, textbook stance, off-hand returning to the hip, etc, is somewhat impractical.

I do feel, however, that the formal technique is vital... especially for a beginner (no matter how talented). To me, the formal technique is... an exaggeration, I guess you could say, of the important principles. The use of hip, or body, or the off-hand, which are all directly linked to the effectiveness of a 'practical' technique, but which in that practical technique are incredibly subtle, can be far more easily demonstrated, taught, and corrected in the formal technique.

As a fourth dan, I'm still finding how subtleties in formal techniques apply differently to patterns, to sparring, to breaking, or to self-defence applications.

And I have to agree with Tacky's baseball-swing analogy, with apologies to Wolvorine - you may know your body's natural positions, but a lot of the subtleties that do increase effectiveness of technique can feel decidedly unnatural until they've been practised for some time... and they are finicky enough that a green belt partner could miss their rpesence or absence.

As with Barsoomcore, I'm not defending the teaching ability of an instructor I've never met... but I am defending the value of formal movements that, in their pure form, have no direct "street" application.

-Hyp.

 

[Wolvorine]

When I perceive someone conducting themselves in a manner I consider shameful then I do indeed speak up. It's not my way to simply hold a low opinion of someone without providing them with an opportunity to explain themselves. I find people with opinions and attitudes different than my own very interesting, especially in situations where only one of us can be right.

Okay, the part I find funny at the moment is that I would swear that was my attitude about the situation in my anecdote.

I do not doubt that you are describing this person accurately, that they are indeed incompetent. I do feel strongly about such things as dojo etiquette, and the behaviour you describe to me still seems out of line, regardless of the provocation you may have suffered. I will add to my stated reasons for thinking so that a dojo where the sensei's authority is challenged becomes a place where no structured learning can take place, and that it requires effort on the part of both teacher and student to maintain that relationship. That one party fails is no excuse for the other to do so as well.

I actually do grasp your point here, I think, and I agree with it overall. In his (or her) dojo,the sensei should never be open to such behavior. There should be respect for his knowledge. But some people tend to erode the respect you attempt to afford them of their own volition.

I think that we simply disagree about appropriate behaviour. Which is interesting to me and I would like to hear more of your responses to my points. For my part, I apologize if I come across as knowing better than you. I mean to make no such claim, but I do disagree with you.

And this, I can live with, and even work with.

The only thing I consider deplorable is how you were bliked out of money you paid in good faith. I certainly would not have stuck it out for as long as you did. Why did your daughter adore it so much?

The class (not that one specific, but in general) was something the entire family had been wanting to do for a long time, and it had much built-up exited hype for her, and the senseis' (is that even a proper plural?) kids had a playstation in the waiting room. And, the one credit I always gave that teacher was he was pretty good with kids.

This is one of our points of disagreement. I don't believe a serious student asks a lot of questions. I believe a serious student practices hard. Your questions should all be answered within the form and a good sensei of any tradition will guide you in that direction. They're inscrutable for a reason, those darn masters.

Yeah, that is a rather large roadblock in between our POVs. My own opinion says that a student who doesn't ask questions is not interested enough to be driven to ask if he is doing something right, or has made an oversight. Even if it's no more than "Like this?"

I'm curious -- what is the basic idea you've gotten from me?

Oh, piffle. I thought I had quoted something you'd said right before that... I honestly don't recall off the top of my head.

Actually, let me first try and restate your point, as you consider yourself misunderstood.

Your idea is that there is a difference between a form's "textbook" manner and "useful" manner. That is, executing a lunge in the textbook manner is not the best way to execute the same lunge when you actually need to use it -- in an actual fight. This is what I took to be your main point.

Ahh, there it is, that's the crossed wire.
Okay, I'm not argueing that a textbook form is inferior in a real-world danger situation than ...some nebulous thing called "useful" or "efficient". It was a lunge punch (just so I don't end up using the word 'form' to mean too many different things), but what I meaning to say there is that it's not the punch, it's 'where is the focus of your attention'. In this case, are you thinking about the punch as some form of dance step you have to get as close to perfect every time -- 1-2-3-4-KAI! (to oversimplify, granted) -- or are you practising the punch as if it were a punch, taking the punch's force, your balance, whether you would have just hit what you were aiming at, etc. Dance or Punch? I guess that's my question. To me, it's a punch, and if I'm going to drill punches, I'm bloody well going to drill punches, not dance steps. Does that make more logical sense to you?

 

[Wolvorine]

But the formal method is not what I'd use in a self-defence situation, particularly for hand techniques. I agree with Wolvorine that a formal punch, textbook stance, off-hand returning to the hip, etc, is somewhat impractical.

I do feel, however, that the formal technique is vital... especially for a beginner (no matter how talented). To me, the formal technique is... an exaggeration, I guess you could say, of the important principles. The use of hip, or body, or the off-hand, which are all directly linked to the effectiveness of a 'practical' technique, but which in that practical technique are incredibly subtle, can be far more easily demonstrated, taught, and corrected in the formal technique.

Yeah, I do agree entirely with this,and I'm sure it effected my attitudes about the situation. It wasn't the main point, but I'm sure it colored it.

And I have to agree with Tacky's baseball-swing analogy, with apologies to Wolvorine - you may know your body's natural positions, but a lot of the subtleties that do increase effectiveness of technique can feel decidedly unnatural until they've been practised for some time... and they are finicky enough that a green belt partner could miss their rpesence or absence.

Hmm, this is taking on a life of it's own *lol*. I didn't mean to infer at any point that I think the most efficient maneuver disrespects the textbook form. In the situation I did do fairly textbook punches, the difference was I did them correctly, but with focus on them being realistically functional, instead of just practice punches.

And, as an aside to whoever it was who started this thread -- I'm sorry, I didn't hijack your thread, it was the story. It's a rampaging thing of evil, and all I truely need is a band of intrepid, underqualified and wet-behind-the-ears adventurers to come and kill it for me, and bring me back 2/5 of it's treasure hoarde.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

What an impertinent suggestion. Alas, I am woefully unqualified to teach anyone much of anything.

And it's sure easier to to be impressive on a messageboard than in a dojo!

For my impertinence I apologise fully.

I was under the impression, falsely it appears, that you were teaching your art. If not, my statement still has meaning. In BSCLF there are more relationships than simply student - teacher (sifu). There is also the relationship to si bart (coequal in experience to teacher) and si hing (more senior student under the same sifu).

I would count it an advantage to have a si hing or si bart with attitudes such as yours.

That said, I wish you well in your future endeavours (film and martial arts) and if in some distant future we meet on a battlefield as enemies, you'll recognise me as the one who's running away screaming while having an embarassing panic attack. Please don't take it personally, I do this whenever faced with conflict.

 

[Lannon]

To the orginal poster,

The fellow who probably knows teh most about actual combat and who has also said very little in this thread has been the fellow below. If he is bullting forgive him as he makes some excellent points in his small reply. The remainder of this thread has been extreme nonsense babbling about "styles" and preferences and "moves". All these statements being made by people that have, probably, very rarely, been in real combat, and whom have probably never been i a life or death situation. If the original poster wants to learn how to fight, then the original poster should join the armed forces. Period. There is no civilian garbage out there that will teach you to fight in any way rivaling what you will learn in the armed forces. In the armed forces you learn how to fight to kill. And even after learning to fight to kill you will not know how well you will perform without seeing actual combat first. Anyone that talks about their ability to take down four men, trained or otherwise, who brags about their side kick, or who describes their ability to break boards etc, is simply looking for a way to make their abilities seem far more important than they are. If you want to know real control and you want to learn what it truly means to be in combat join the armed forces. Learn to fire the weapon of the modern martial master, the gun, and learn what close combat techniques are neccessary if your other skills fail you. I guarantee that with a fast draw and excellent aim, a modern special ops, is going to, nearly, insure a win against a less well armed martial artist of any level. Thats reality.

later.

13 years studying Kyokushinkai, 7 learning Zanji Shinjinken Ryu, 3 years learning sel-defense from my uncle a 26 year vet of the US Marine Corps, and 5 years as a pit fighter.

I will say that it is the fighter, not the style that matters most. Most of the pit fighters I've seen would destroy anything coming out of the UFC.

 

[LGodamus]

Re: Re: Cool Thread.

Anyone else have good or bad experiences focusing on the eyes, belt, hips, or just past the opponent, or otherwise?

In Ninpo when you are facing an opponent you look at their shoulders,they are the most telling feature of any attack,whether it originates from the arms, legs, body, or the head.......it's called gazing at the distant mountains.