Do you use Non-associated class levels?

[jmucchiello]

Actually, this is just like the multiclassing problem. A character with two equal level spellcasting classes is generally not as effective as a character with full levels in either class. I've often thought the non-associative rule should be used when determining party EL. A party of 4 10th level characters (1 ftr, 1 wiz, 1 clr and 1 rog) would have a Effective Party Level of 10. A party of 4 5/5 level characters 1 ftr/wiz, 1 ftr/clr, 1 wiz/rog and 1 clr/rog) would have an Effective Party Level of 7.5 because all of them have 5 non-associative levels.

IMO to determine if something is non-associative, if the character is a fighter-type, any of the non-fighter classes (ftr, brb, rgr, pal) are non-associative. If the character has one primary spellcasting class, other classes are non-associative. IOW, only the 4 classes above are truly associative (as well as straight HD for damage racial monsters).

 

[Gundark]

so here is a question would sorcerer and/or wizard classes always be non-associated? I know that this is a judgement call but really what good is a level of wizard when the creature is supposed to be a challenge at mid levels ? Even at lower levels I can see a level or 2 or wizard/sorcerer not really being worth the effort (wow you can cast a 1 Magic missile at a 4th level party).

Edit: Creatures like Drifdes obviously would be different and an exception to the rule.

Now I know that someone will come back and say that there are other spells besides the scailing ones, and this is true. Mage armour would be useful for example. However with lower durations this spell has a less than desired effect too. Unless the said creature cast it in combat (which sucks) or was somehow aware of the party coming (with a stealthy party this always isn't going to be the case).

comments?

 

[Gundark]

But it will be significantly tougher for a level 10 party, who hasn't access to the level 6 greater dispel magic spell for one thing. The 7 sorcerer levels also mean better saves, and more hitpoints, which can be boosted even more with the bear's endurance. And the eagle's splendor would boost his attack DCs too.

And if you add a few scrolls to it - how much is a scroll of improved invisibility? - the mindflayer could get even worse.

I'd not expect him to be a 25% fight for a level 10 party.

The Age of wroms Mind flayer in question is an end boss for the module (Hall of Harsh reflections). Thus I'd expect a BBEG to be more than a 25% fight. But even still this creature is a nasty fight even for a BBEG.

 

[Gold Roger]

No. While I like CR to help me estimate "out of the book opponents" and I do use the CR/APL system for combat xp (though I reduce all combat xp to 1/3), I prefer to estimate the CR for NPC's and classed monsters I create according to the actual challenge they will provide to my players instead of some widely inaccurate formula.

 

[Sejs]

Yes, I do use non-associated class levels.

Yes, those 7 levels of sorcerer are very much so associated for a mind flayer. Mind flayers don't wade in and beat ass, they hang back and magic at you. So do sorcerers. Quid pro quo.

No, sorc/wiz levels would not always be non-associated. There are any number of creatured whose primary schtick is directly in-line with that of a sorcerer or wizard. Now, it'd be non-associated for something like an ogre or troll, where getting into the thick of melee is their reason for being, but that's still a far cry from saying it's useless - you just implement it differently. An ogre sorcerer (2) who can toss down True Strike, Mage Armor, Shield, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, or Expeditious Retreat is not something to laugh at. Or a troll with 3 levels in wizard and Resist Energy. It's all in how you use it.

 

[MerricB]

Yes, I do use non-associated class levels.

Yes, those 7 levels of sorcerer are very much so associated for a mind flayer. Mind flayers don't wade in and beat ass, they hang back and magic at you. So do sorcerers. Quid pro quo.

They're not associated.

Why? The Mind-flayer has no sorcerer spellcasting ability to begin with.

7 levels of Sorcerer translate to a caster level of 7.

Your 14th level Sorcerer (CR 14) throws a 14d6 damage spell at you, or similar.
Your Mindflayer Sorcerer 7 throws a 7d6 spell at you, or similar. The sorcerer levels aren't really helping the Mind Blast either.

There isn't a comparison.

Remember, CRs are *not* linear.

Cheers!

 

[pawsplay]

They're not associated.

Why? The Mind-flayer has no sorcerer spellcasting ability to begin with.

7 levels of Sorcerer translate to a caster level of 7.

Your 14th level Sorcerer (CR 14) throws a 14d6 damage spell at you, or similar.
Your Mindflayer Sorcerer 7 throws a 7d6 spell at you, or similar. The sorcerer levels aren't really helping the Mind Blast either.

First of all, for the record, mind flayer base CR is 8.

A 7th level spell, cast by that sorcerer, is going to have a DC of 17 + Cha modifier. A 3rd level spell has a base DC of 13 + Cha modifier. So a 7th level mind flayer sorcerer's spells are going to have nearly as high a DC going out of the gate... +6 Cha! That means higher DCs, more spells. You're wrong about the mind blast; is Cha-based, so it gets a +2 DC boost thanks to an "elite" base charisma of 15, +1 for increasing its charisma. Detect thoughts and suggestion both get a nice boost.

Now let's figure out what to do with 7 sorcerer. That nets us three feats. How about Ability Focus (mind blast), Practiced Caster, and Spell Focus (evocation)? While we're at it, let's drop Combat Casting, max out Concentration, and take Greater Spell Focus (evocation). Now your mind flayer can cast a fireball with a DC of 20, not taking into account stat-boosting item, and it can deliver 11d6 damage, nearly as much as the sorcerer's.

The mind flayer has +2 Con, and d8s as hit dice, translating into +31 hit points. He also has natural armor and very nasty melee capability. And then there's that whole SR 25 thing. A 15th level sorcerer can make that just over half the time, making his vaunted casting superiority a moot point. At best, he's going to have to rely on conjurations.

This guy isn't going to be casting fireballs until he's good and ready. No, how about eagle's splendor, followed by a psionic blast with a DC of 24?

No, as an NPC, it would have to be a well built sorcerer to stack up to a mind flayer sorcerer of the same CR.

 

[MerricB]

First of all, for the record, mind flayer base CR is 8.

Ah yes, the joy of not having my books with me.

A 7th level spell, cast by that sorcerer, is going to have a DC of 17 + Cha modifier. A 3rd level spell has a base DC of 13 + Cha modifier. So a 7th level mind flayer sorcerer's spells are going to have nearly as high a DC going out of the gate... +6 Cha! That means higher DCs, more spells. You're wrong about the mind blast; is Cha-based, so it gets a +2 DC boost thanks to an "elite" base charisma of 15, +1 for increasing its charisma. Detect thoughts and suggestion both get a nice boost.

A +3 DC to mind blast is rather nice, but is it worth more than +3 or +4 CR? I think not.

Now let's figure out what to do with 7 sorcerer. That nets us three feats. How about Ability Focus (mind blast), Practiced Caster, and Spell Focus (evocation)? While we're at it, let's drop Combat Casting, max out Concentration, and take Greater Spell Focus (evocation). Now your mind flayer can cast a fireball with a DC of 20, not taking into account stat-boosting item, and it can deliver 11d6 damage, nearly as much as the sorcerer's.

10d6. Fireball caps at 10d6, and the mind-flayer doesn't have access to anything better.

(As a note: the 11th level Sorcerer should have Cha 17 or so, or DC 20 for its GSF spells. 11d6 damage, not counting at least a statbooster.)

The mind flayer has +2 Con, and d8s as hit dice, translating into +31 hit points...

You do mean d4 for hit dice. I think you got the calculation right, but not the numbers.

And then there's that whole SR 25 thing. A 15th level sorcerer can make that just over half the time, making his vaunted casting superiority a moot point. At best, he's going to have to rely on conjurations.

Conjurations have gotten rather good. However, just using Core Rules, even then the 15th level sorcerer can be making use of things like Spell Penetration. (For a Core Rules sorcerer, the three feats you need by that level are Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and Empower Spell. ) Sorcerer 15 would bypass that SR 75% of the time.

I need to check the rules for mindflayer SR, though.

This guy isn't going to be casting fireballs until he's good and ready. No, how about eagle's splendor, followed by a psionic blast with a DC of 24?

An excellent combination.

Cheers!

 

[Sejs]

They're not associated.

Why? The Mind-flayer has no sorcerer spellcasting ability to begin with.

7 levels of Sorcerer translate to a caster level of 7.

Your 14th level Sorcerer (CR 14) throws a 14d6 damage spell at you, or similar.
Your Mindflayer Sorcerer 7 throws a 7d6 spell at you, or similar. The sorcerer levels aren't really helping the Mind Blast either.

There isn't a comparison.

Remember, CRs are *not* linear.

Cheers!

I respectfully disagree. Certainly, it doesn't synergise as neatly as it would with, say, a Rakshasa, but a mind flayer's talents are definitely complimentary.

The charisma based spell-likes and mind blast, the naturally high charisma, etc. Eagle's Splendor adding to the DC of mind blast as already mentioned. The mind flayer's levitate, charm monster, and suggestion would make other spellcasting all that much easier.

Off the top of my head, a spell list something like:
0th (x7): Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Resistance, Mending
1st (x5): Benign Transposition, Ray of Enfeeblement, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Inhibit (or Blood Wind, possibly)
2nd (x3): Eagle's Splendor, Blindness/Deafness, Mirror Image (or Darkness, if you houserule it)
3rd (x2): Slow, Ray of Exhaustion (or Soundlance, if you're so inclined)

Basically spells that decieve, control, or weaken the enemy. Seems quite mind flayery. If a fight actually starts up, levitate out of reach, de-buff your foes until they can barely stand, then wade in and extract away, or have your loyal minions mop them up while you're safe and sound. Particularly if you houserule Darkness (to be more like 3.0 darkness and less like the current version), add in the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness, and things can be particularly nasty.

 

[Sejs]

I need to check the rules for mindflayer SR, though.

SR 25 + class levels. So a normal mind flayer's got 25, the proposed sorcerer(7) would be walking around with SR 32. None too shabby.