Does a hill giant werewolf hybrid get stronger or weaker?

[Black Arrow]

I'm looking at making a wererat rogue. The MM template describes the hybrid size as being 'Medium'. [Intuitively for a small-size humanoid, it would make sense to be remain small, but that's not in the MM description].

Assuming halfling, would undergoing a size change result in the ability score adjustments also described in MM? Small to medium size adjustments are +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -1 AC/hit. Similarly, if a hill giant contracted werewolf lycanthropy, would the change from large giant to medium size hybrid result in the giant having -8 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Con, -2 natural AC, +1 AC/attack? [Penalties of course would be tempered by the werewolf form --> -6 Str, +6 Dex, +0 Con]. It seems to me that base Strength and other physical characteristics are inherent to the creature's size.

Back to the wererat. According to Savage Species, a base 1 HD creature can choose to lose the racial 1 HD and replace with level 1 class abilities. Is this the case with wererat? Don't own a copy of 'Races of Faerun', but IIRC natural lycanthropy is ECL +2 and afflicted lycanthropy is ECL +1. So would a level 1 rogue natural wererat lycanthrope have ECL 3 (2 if afflicted)? Appreciate any help.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

There have been a few changes to the template.

Size: The character's (which must be humanoid or giant) and the animal's size categories have to be within one step of each other. This means no Halfling Werebears or Giant wererats. The size of their pure forms remain the same, and the hybrid form is the larger of the two involved
Abilities: They get +2 Wis, and in hybrid and animal form, the physical ability scores get the adjustments the animal has (example: Crocodile has Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, so the lycanthrope gets Str +8, Dex +2 and Con +6). No additional adjustments are made for size
1HD for Class level: That's only for humanoids AFAIK. Also, it doesn't matter anymore, since you get the animal's hit dice in addition to your own: A commoner 1 bitten by a werewolf has now 3 HD: 1 for commoner, 2 for wolf. A human fighter 10 bitten by the same werewolf has 12 HD: 10 fighter and 2 wolf. Then, they get a level adjustment of +1 (for afflicted lycanthropy, born lycanthropes get +2)

 

[Black Arrow]

Thanks for the clarification, especially regarding size adjustment. It makes sense that hybrid size would be something in-between animal and humanoid/giant form... e.g. hill giant weretiger or halfling wererat would not become medium size as a hybrid.

Solves the ability score dilemna too. +2 Wisdom is a nice perk.

The level adjustment makes sense to a degree, but I think that a non-classed 1 HD (or less) creature who contracted lycanthropy could replace the base creature hit dice with the lycanthrope animal hit dice, per Savage Species. This assumes acquiring lycanthrope animal hit dice is treated as picking up class levels.

So one might start off as a non-classed afflicted werewolf (2 HD, ECL 3) and pick up one level fighter (3 HD, ECL 4), or start off as a human fighter 1 (1 HD, ECL 1) and be afflicted with werewolf lycanthropy (becoming 3 HD, ECL 4). End result is practically the same. A commoner 1 OTOH is classed and would have 3 HD as a werewolf.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Does the new template give hybrid form to all lycanthropes now? [MM limits hybrid to wererat, werewolf, and weretiger]. If so, werebat might make a viable rogue too... +12 Dex IIRC.

 

[The Souljourner]

The new rules are in Races of Faerun, and yes, now all lycanthropes get the hybrid form (before, it just made the non-hybrid choices totally inferior).

-The Souljourner

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The level adjustment makes sense to a degree, but I think that a non-classed 1 HD (or less) creature who contracted lycanthropy could replace the base creature hit dice with the lycanthrope animal hit dice, per Savage Species. This assumes acquiring lycanthrope animal hit dice is treated as picking up class levels.

So one might start off as a non-classed afflicted werewolf (2 HD, ECL 3) and pick up one level fighter (3 HD, ECL 4), or start off as a human fighter 1 (1 HD, ECL 1) and be afflicted with werewolf lycanthropy (becoming 3 HD, ECL 4). End result is practically the same. A commoner 1 OTOH is classed and would have 3 HD as a werewolf.

The new template works differently, as you have two types of HD: animal and character, so you cannot replace your 1st racial HD with the animal HD, but you can probably trade it in for a class level, as usual. Of course, the final result is the same (except that you get full HD and quadruple skill points for your class level, not for animal, which might be of advantage), but it makes more sense that way.

The new rules are in Races of Faerun, and yes, now all lycanthropes get the hybrid form (before, it just made the non-hybrid choices totally inferior).

Except the Lythari, which are no real lycanthropes anyway, IMO, but just natural shapechangers.

 

[Black Arrow]

The new template works differently, as you have two types of HD: animal and character, so you cannot replace your 1st racial HD with the animal HD, but you can probably trade it in for a class level, as usual. Of course, the final result is the same (except that you get full HD and quadruple skill points for your class level, not for animal, which might be of advantage), but it makes more sense that way.

That makes sense and sounds pretty balanced... adding on animal HD automatically comes with the affliction. I'll probably browse through 'Races of Faerun' some time at my local book store.

On a different but related note, do you know of any way to get more than one attack from a 'natural weapon' such as claw or bite? Don't think Improved Two-Weapon Fighting would allow two bite attacks... but could it apply to natural attacks such as the claws of a weretiger? Or would the weretiger need to "wield" actual weapons (such as "tiger claws"(D&D p. 158) or spiked gauntlets) in his prehensile hands to employ that feat?

 

[Spatula]

On a different but related note, do you know of any way to get more than one attack from a 'natural weapon' such as claw or bite?

Haste.

Don't think Improved Two-Weapon Fighting would allow two bite attacks... but could it apply to natural attacks such as the claws of a weretiger? Or would the weretiger need to "wield" actual weapons (such as "tiger claws"(D&D p. 158) or spiked gauntlets) in his prehensile hands to employ that feat?

Monsters don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons (exception: slam attacks). Instead, they get more attacks at a higher attack bonus: 2 claws at their top BAB plus 1 bite at -5, in the case of a weretiger. If you want extra attacks based on your BAB, you need to use manufactured weapons. Allowing extra attacks due to BAB for natural attacks would be unbalancing, since you don't suffer 2WF penalties (-2 or -4 to all attacks), and you get your full Strength bonus on all your primary attacks (the 2 claw attacks, for the weretiger).

Although if a weretiger wanted to take the 2WF feats and suffer the normal penalties (-2 on attacks, 1/2 Strength damage on the off-hand, etc.), I'd allow it.

 

[Black Arrow]

You guys are a treasure trove of information. Thanks! I appreciate insight into both the rules and reasoning behind them. Hope the 3.5e revisers take note from this community... and fix spells like telekinesis (which could be employed by a CR 1 githyanki to telekinetically hurl 4000 shuriken... that fix alone might convince me to pick up the revision this summer).

[Back to original tangent]. Nice observation about slam btw. Iterative slams never occured to me, but it's there sure enough, right under elemental... Speaking of the which, do you know any creature that employs slam and some other attack at the same time? Forest Master (F&P) acquires the ability to slam attack opponents... I wonder if he could simultaneously do so while wielding his great enchanted signature maul. Perhaps with TWF?

Anyway, I plan to make my next character a Strongheart halfling wererat rogue 'swashbuckler' that wields a halfling rapier in one hand (also used for parrying per Dragon Nov '02 rules) and quickdraws/throws returning daggers with the other. With a BAB of +9 (ranger 1/fighter 2/rogue 3/templar 1/guild thief 4/wererat 1/LA+1), the opposition receives 8 sneak attacks a round after he activates a ring of blinking and boots of speed. Fun stuff.