Does a Setting need gods?

[ceiling90]

So I'm in the middle creating my own campaign setting; it's been an ongoing project for a few years now... but reading through many of the RPG products, especially from this fine site, does a setting need Gods?

Dark Sun doesn't particularly seem to have any, but they have replacement "gods" as it were with the sorcerer kings.

It just seems that every RPG fantasy world has gods tied to races, or tied to some working pantheon. I can see the value of religion in a setting, but I don't particularly subscribe to gods in general. It would seem that many a tragedy or an event is tied to Gods coming and going, or birthing or dying.

It might be my more sci-fi bent, where gods, and religion in general are more of an afterthought in the lives of it's denizens; with only a few that ever dedicate themselves to it having it actually do anything. Or in the more modern sense where gods don't do anything. While it seems that gods are very intrinsically tied to the setting; I don't exactly vibe with that. I'm probably closer to the way Gods are treated in Neil Gaiman's American Gods with how I would imagine it.

What do you guys think?

 

[Colmarr]

Gods have a pretty strong genre-connection with RPG games, but there's no reason they need to be there.

4e would play just fine if you removed every class tied to the divine power source.

 

[ceiling90]

I mean, I don't want that restriction; since theoretically, Belief alone will work with a Cleric, Paladin, or Avenger.

But, I was just wondering. I read the nifty preview of Vakeshi Mystic, and there's a large section of how a death of a god pretty much messed with an entire race/nation.

I can't compel myself to even fathom that. While it's partially engrossing, I just feel that Gods shouldn't have to matter that much to a people/nation/whatever. And any tragedies would seem more likely to be caused by the callousness of men or the uncaring justice of nature's chaos.

But I was wondering if anyone else felt that way, or is really important to the genre and the game space that a setting have defined and actual working Gods?

There are ample pages spent on explaining and naming gods in 4e's POLland setting, and I'm going to think that there are going to be quite a few in other works too. Does it make the world more interesting, if the actual religions had living gods? Or that they have significant pull in the universe?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So I'm in the middle creating my own campaign setting; it's been an ongoing project for a few years now... but reading through many of the RPG products, especially from this fine site, does a setting need Gods?

Nope.

(And this is another thread that would probably be even more fantastic in the general forum. I'm starting to think the segregated forums are a bad idea.)

 

[jeffh]

Dark Sun gets along fine without gods. (As a game setting, I mean - from the point of view of the people who live there, it's kind of a crapsack setting). If you don't want to ditch divine classes entirely, as DS does by default, both 2E and 3E made various rip-off-able allowances for clerics of no deity in particular.

 

[Colmarr]

But I was wondering if anyone else felt that way, or is really important to the genre and the game space that a setting have defined and actual working Gods?

It's not important. Feel free to cast it aside. But in doing so, think of the follow-on effects.

If you leave divine classes in the setting, you're effectively proposing a setting where belief grants personal power, even in the absence of entities that grant that power. That's IMO conceptually very close to psionics, so you might need to think about how the two interract (or drop one in favour of the other).

If you remove gods from the setting, then how large a role does organised religion play? How does the Church of Tempus fare if no one's heard from Tempus in the last 3000 years? "The same as in the real world," isn't necessarily a good answer because the real world doesn't include dragons and orcs and hobgoblins and other power sources with which to defeat them.

 

[Neverfate]

So I'm in the middle creating my own campaign setting; it's been an ongoing project for a few years now... but reading through many of the RPG products, especially from this fine site, does a setting need Gods?

Dark Sun doesn't particularly seem to have any, but they have replacement "gods" as it were with the sorcerer kings.

It just seems that every RPG fantasy world has gods tied to races, or tied to some working pantheon. I can see the value of religion in a setting, but I don't particularly subscribe to gods in general. It would seem that many a tragedy or an event is tied to Gods coming and going, or birthing or dying.

It might be my more sci-fi bent, where gods, and religion in general are more of an afterthought in the lives of it's denizens; with only a few that ever dedicate themselves to it having it actually do anything. Or in the more modern sense where gods don't do anything. While it seems that gods are very intrinsically tied to the setting; I don't exactly vibe with that. I'm probably closer to the way Gods are treated in Neil Gaiman's American Gods with how I would imagine it.

What do you guys think?

Well the absence of the "Hi! My name is so-and-so and I'm the god of -enter domain/element of life- and I constantly try to achieve -some heavenly/dastardly- goal on various planes" type of gods doesn't get rid of divine characters. Actually that probably makes the faith angel a little more important. Without the knowledge of god existing (or like most D&D setting, meeting and/or killing them) it allows you to push characters when their faith is tested in a more realistic way.

I'm not a huge fan of corporal gods. It diminishes the idea of divine classes in the game into cults (which in some settings works). Following one person around. It's very Greek mythology. Which is fun sometimes, but other times just have the gods represent a force of nature in the universe that a character can believe in and even draw power from even though they don't have 100% proof. It's faith.

Really, the choice is pretty much based on the tone of your game. Gods, or almost any other element of D&D, is neither necessary or enforced.

 

[DracoSuave]

Looking at Eberron, you have The Path of Light (seeking personal enlightenment and purity for its own sake), the Undying Court (serving a necrocracy... no gods, but a council of lich-like deathless heroes), Ancestor worship (belief that the elven heroes watch over the people as spirits, tho not in the same sense as a god would), The Silver Flame (following the ways of a heroic sacrifice)... all sorts of religious constructs that do not involve dieties.

That doesn't even factor in the spirit ways contained within the primal power source, which is another form of reverence that does not involve gods.

Turfing deities is certainly doable.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

As others have pointed out, the removal of gods is certainly do-able, and in some ways desirable. IRL, I tend to agree with you @ceiling90, though since you are asking this in the context of creating your own campaign world, you need to consider your potential players. How do they feel about it?

One of the fellows I game with, and several that I no longer game with, are/were completely nuts about divine characters, and the idea of gods existing, and their place in the imaginary world. I hadn't given a ton of thought to the pantheon of my world beyond creating one, but these kinds of players just grabbed it and ran with it. I will refrain from making any judgement statements about the personality types of these gamers, but I will point out that in a godless world, some players may not enjoy the game as much.

If you're making your own setting, first and foremost, you need interested, engaged, and preferably enthusiastic players. So unless you're trying to make some kind of statement with your world, or the lack of deities is central to your idea, I think it's best to try to involve and engage your players any way you can. Often, this means gods.

 

[ceiling90]

For me, and the people I tend to game with, unless the setting has robust gods, they're kinda afterthoughts. Someone might pick a cleric or another Divine class and try play the Proselytizer. Most of the other characters and player don't think about it.

The only time I remember gods having effects in a game I played, other than so and so god event happened so now we're adventuring type back story; was in Iron Kingdoms with very defined and very active gods.

But as for other thoughts:
@ Colmarr: I never thought about it, in the terms of Psionics vs Divine when there's a distinct lack of gods. I'd probably allow both, in that Psionics isn't an issue of belief, it would be a quantifiable noted phenomenon that is intrinsic to the power of the mind and body. Divine is powered by Belief and Faith, Belief in the goodness of men and the faith that they will carry through and the like.

[MENTION=71571]DracoSuave[/MENTION]: That's true in Eberron, where many of the "religions" aren't entirely based on gods, but are based on Primal basis ie pantheism, nature spirits and ancestral worship. Except that the Silver Flame people, I always get the feel that they're this crazy paramilitary organization with a strong dose of cult flare. I'm not entirely sure if the 6 in Eberron is corporal, or any of the other actual gods presented.

I mean, I do see that religious organizations will happen, regardless if the gods are corporal and active; that's a whole different issue from walking, talking, rough and tumble gods actually wandering the "earth". Or gods whose birth/death has any actual effect on the living earth.

I think really, is that; like I mentioned, Gods as corporal things are sort of an afterthought for me. The organizations with religious overtones aren't though. I am currently contemplating the idea of a sentient planet or sentient space station of the like. I'm also contemplating the idea of Corporal Gods who aren't much better than their followers, in the vein of American Gods or the Hogfather.

The other thoughts is that, belief systems based on non-god concepts: nature spirits, ancestors, and the like seem to be more a function on the belief system and less about a god. So to me, they're a complete function on the organization or history, though it could be argued that may function as a diefic pantheon.

Thanks, everyone.