Does anybody still play d20 Modern/Future/Past/Apocalypse

[Ahnehnois]

Well, it's d20 (i.e. 3.5) maths; and Pathfinder has done a reasonable job at tweaking that. What in your mind are the major issues? Did 3.5 suffer from the same problems?

Yes. Multiclassing saves and BABs requires fractional bonuses to work. In Modern, it's expected more than D&D that characters will multiclass early and often, leading to some aberrantly high and low bonuses. Moreover, it's confusing, and tying these bonuses to level doesn't work as well for a modern game. It would have been best to simply make all of them skills, which would fix the math.

(Mild musing re. the classes - I'm just wondering what happens if you literally drop the basic classes, and use the advanced classes as basic classes (you'd have to drop the pre-reqs). There's craploads of advanced and prestige classes out there in the 3PP arena.

Some of them are too specific and really need prereqs, I think.

 

[Morrus]

Yes. Multiclassing saves and BABs requires fractional bonuses to work.

What do you mean by fractional bonuses? (I ask, because I'm actually considering playing round with it in the wiki and attempting to cobble something together).

Moreover, it's confusing, and tying these bonuses to level doesn't work as well for a modern game.

I don't really understand that statement - I don't see the setting as a factor there. Unless you just mean aesthetically?

 

[Remus Lupin]

A agree 100%. By far the biggest issue. I did try renaming them, but they're broad enough that no name is really enough.

Strong - Brute
Fast - Rogue
Tough - Brick
Smart - Genius
Dedicated - Doctor
Charismatic - Leader

Far, far from ideal though. Helped a little in envisaging characters, but the classes are so mcuh broader than those names imply. Like Fast includes pilots and drivers, and Charismatic includes politicans, con men, and sergeants. Smart includes scientists and tacticians and engineers.

I think these are great, though I might consider trading "Doctor" which is a bit too specific for "Crusader," to emphasis the idea that the character is motivated by his/her dedication to a cause (of course, "crusader" has it's own problems).

I loved d20 Modern (apart from the class names), but it's the problem of not having enough hours in the day or days in the week to play everything I'd like.

 

[Ahnehnois]

What do you mean by fractional bonuses? (I ask, because I'm actually considering playing round with it in the wiki and attempting to cobble something together).

That is, calculating total bonus based on the fractional bonus from the levels in each class. So, for an attack bonus, a level on a poor BAB class (1/2 level) and a level in a medium BAB class (3/4 leve) add up to 5/4, and the character's BAB is +1. By the default method, the character gets +0. The saves work similarly, combine all the fractions.

For a practical example, a fast hero 2/smart hero 2/techie 2/mage 2 (not a terribly unreasonable character) has a base fortitude save of +0, as an 8th level character. He's getting screwed. With fractional bonuses, he has 8/3, which rounds to +2. That's reasonable.

I don't really understand that statement - I don't see the setting as a factor there. Unless you just mean aesthetically?

I mean that Modern is not, by default, combat focused. In D&D, combat is assumed to at least be a significant part of the game, and characters are assumed to have some competence at it. Thus, there is no reason why many characters (doctors, scientists, reporters, comedians, teachers, thieves, etc. etc.) should ever have any bonus to attacks, regardless of their level.

 

[Morrus]

That is, calculating total bonus based on the fractional bonus from the levels in each class. So, for an attack bonus, a level on a poor BAB class (1/2 level) and a level in a medium BAB class (3/4 leve) add up to 5/4, and the character's BAB is +1. By the default method, the character gets +0. The saves work similarly, combine all the fractions.

For a practical example, a fast hero 2/smart hero 2/techie 2/mage 2 (not a terribly unreasonable character) has a base fortitude save of +0, as an 8th level character. He's getting screwed. With fractional bonuses, he has 8/3, which rounds to +2. That's reasonable.

That's a trivially easy change. Each players just needs to keep track of his ongoing total. For a bit extra work, someone could put it in a big table to make it even easier.

I mean that Modern is not, by default, combat focused. In D&D, combat is assumed to at least be a significant part of the game, and characters are assumed to have some competence at it. Thus, there is no reason why many characters (doctors, scientists, reporters, comedians, teachers, thieves, etc. etc.) should ever have any bonus to attacks, regardless of their level.

Ah, I don't agree there. That's an aesthetic stylistic choice. No reason a blacksmith should be good at fighting in D&D, either. There are thousands of examples in TV of normal folks doing just fine in combats. It's not that they're cooks or comedians or archeologists or cattle wranglers or scientists - it's that they're *protagonists* and heroes, and don't go out like a chump. If Marty McFly and Indiana Jones and Xander from Buffy can all get into fights with bullies, nazis, and vampires, no reason other heroes can't.

But that's just a style choice. Not the sort of thing someone's gonna convince someone else to like or not like.

 

[Morrus]

So, something like this? In decimal, I chose to always round 1/3 down to .3 and 2/3 up to .7 (so the two added still add up to 1 without having to deal with 2 decimal places).

Another option would be .5 and .75, which would skew slightly higher.

[bar]Strong Hero Multclassing[/bar]

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will
1	1	1	0	0
2	2	2	0.5	0.5
3	3	2.3	1	1
4	4	2.7	1.3	1.3
5	5	3	1.7	1.7
6	6	3.5	2	2
7	7	4	2.3	2.3
8	8	4.3	2.7	2.7
9	9	4.7	3	3
10	10	5	3.3	3.3

[bar]Fast Hero Multiclassing[/bar]

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will
1	0	0	1	0
2	1	0.5	2	0.5
3	2	1	2.3	1
4	3	1.3	2.7	1.3
5	3.5	1.7	3	1.7
6	4	2	3.5	2
7	5	2.3	4	2.3
8	6	2.7	4.3	2.7
9	6.5	3	4.7	3
10	7	3.3	5	3.3

 

[RangerWickett]

Did you ever play Call of Cthulhu d20? They didn't have classes at all. Everyone got the same hit dice, skill points, feats, saves, and attack bonus progression, and you just made a damned character. Use that as the baseline for the game (call it Character Creation), and then let people hop into advanced classes (now just called Classes).

Hell, I'd even say set 5th level as the assumed baseline for most games in the vein of TV serials or low-key action flicks. 1st level works for The Goonies, or horror movies where a slasher stalks hapless kids.

Remember, Russ, we did do a superhero d20 Modern add-on with Four-Colour to Fantasy, way way back in 2003.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Did you ever play Call of Cthulhu d20? They didn't have classes at all. Everyone got the same hit dice, skill points, feats, saves, and attack bonus progression, and you just made a damned character. Use that as the baseline for the game (call it Character Creation), and then let people hop into advanced classes (now just called Classes).

CoC does have two classes, sort of (you can play an offense or defense character and get different progressions). That is an interesting idea though. Instead of six lame classes, just start out classless and pout everyone on similar footing, then use the classes to specialize later on.

 

[Remus Lupin]

I was always very happy with d20 Call of Cthulhu, though I couldn't help feeling that it lent itself to a more "pulpy" and action packed play style.

 

[Kaodi]

I would really like to see Paizo do at least a one-off modern/sci-fi RPG based on the Pathfinder rules. I even have the perfect name for it, which I have suggested on Twitter a few times. I think though that it might be better to take what works in Modern and add it to the core Pathfinder system rather than the other way around. I kind of wonder whether they just have zero interest in such a project, or perhaps they are holding off until they can make it the introduction to a future "Pathfinder, 2nd Edition" . Especially after the Ultimate Equipment and Ultimate Campaign Guides though it seems like the time could be right to give it a shot.