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Does anyone actually like Dragonborn and Tieflings?

Do you like Dragonborn and Tieflings?

  • I love them both

    Votes: 97 13.3%
  • I like them both

    Votes: 228 31.3%
  • I love/like Dragonborn, not so much Tieflings

    Votes: 59 8.1%
  • I love/like Tieflings, not so much Dragonborn

    Votes: 97 13.3%
  • I dislike them both

    Votes: 130 17.8%
  • I hate them both

    Votes: 52 7.1%
  • Indifferent

    Votes: 66 9.1%

EATherrian

First Post
The "elven split" problem is a lot older than D&D. You can blame Tolkien if you want to. Compare the Eladrin in the LotR trilogy to the Elves in the Hobbit... (Or just read the Silmarillion for the same thing with more explanation as to why.)

I would trace it even further back, to the word "elf" being used for very different peoples of fey origin. The Eladrin solution is the best I have seen in any game that tried to handle it.

But why do you need two separate races of elf for this split. It could just be a fluff difference. One group likes to pretend they are high and mighty, the other likes to live close to nature; but they are both still elves. I could handle that. Why do they have to create a new race for things that are better handled just with story?
 

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Mercule

Adventurer
Don't particularly like tieflings as written, although the take on them from Planescape was tolerable.

I extremely dislike Dragonborn however.
While I've never been a Planescape fan, this is pretty much my feeling.

I doubt I'll have to ban dragonborn, since I don't see my players being accepting of them. Well, there is one guy, but he'll get censured by the other players.

Tieflings aren't horrible, in concept, but the implementation was botched, IMO. Fortunately, none of the mechanics actually require the mega-horns or lizard tail, so the fluff is easy enough to change to make them palatable.
 

EATherrian

First Post
To answer the original question, I dislike both races. I don't hate them, I can see where with intensive re-writing of their backgrounds they could be decent; but as with most of the core with this edition as written they leave me wanting. In truth, I like the Tolkeinesque races, with a nice mix of other mythology thrown in for spice. I also strongly discourage the playing of races that are considered "evil" in the setting. If the whole world thinks you're evil they aren't going to wait and see if you are or not. If someone wants a real role-playing difficulty added, it can be fun; unfortunately I usually get the Drizzt-lover who doesn't understand why the town-guard won't let him in and keep firing bolts at him. The back-story of the Tieflings make me think they should be treated about the same way. I still don't know what to do with Dragonborn, they are utterly alien to my modes of fantasy.
 



Zinovia

Explorer
But why do you need two separate races of elf for this split. It could just be a fluff difference. One group likes to pretend they are high and mighty, the other likes to live close to nature; but they are both still elves. I could handle that. Why do they have to create a new race for things that are better handled just with story?
For the different racial stats and abilities. In my campaign, all elves are the same species, but the elves live in the real world and are tree-hugger types (wood elves), the eladrin are more closely tied to the feywild, cities, and magic (high elves). In order to reflect the differences in background and the affinity with their environment, the two types of elves in the PH work for me, but they aren't different species; they just were raised in different environments.

The dark elves are also true elves that live in the underdark and are scary and creepy, but I'm ditching a lot of the Forgotten Realms drow feel, including the skin color. People who live underground have pale skin. Furthermore, no race portrayed the way the drow have been could possibly survive unless they littered like cats and had dozens of children over the course of their lifetimes. Not only do they perform evil rites and sacrifice their own offspring (a huge taboo which reinforces how *evil* they are), they also compete in internecine warfare and murder each other off pretty frequently. Add to that the fact that they are targeted for genocide by every adventuring party that wanders into the Underdark. So why aren't they all extinct yet?

Ahem. To wander back on topic, I think the dragonborn and tieflings fill a good role and I think I like them pretty well as races for the PH. What I dislike the most about both of them is the artwork. It's not that the art is bad, but rather than I don't care for the way they have chosen to portray both races.

Dragonborn have a lot of problems with their usual look in the core books. Their eyes are too small; it's hard to even see them in some of the paintings. Their lower legs are much too short. Their arms are longer than their legs in a lot of the art. That looks silly to me. They should have tails. They should not look like porcupines. They should not have boobs. I think they should have more color variation, if not the usual brilliant spectrum of evil dragon colors. So in my game world dragonborn have tails, no boobs, bigger eyes, and fewer spiky bits all over their heads. I like the dragonborn portrayed at the start of the chapter on ritual magic, but that's one of the few that I really like. Many of them, including the one on the front cover are very ugly. Beady little eyes aren't attractive.

I'm not sure that the appearance of tieflings needed to be locked down so much. I thought one of the characteristics of tieflings in past editions was that they had a variable appearance. Some had horns, some had tails, some had goat legs. I'm not sure where I want to go with that for my game. I do feel that tieflings should not have giant alligator tails that are 5' long. They should have shorter tails that are a bit more slender, or in some cases no tail at all. Their horns are too large, although I like some of the portrayals in the books more than others. I don't like the chin spikes and such on the guys. That's too freaky. Make them look more human with demonic traits, not like something that would be slain as a demon the instant it walked into a town. They started off as human after all.

In 25 years of gaming, I think I've seen someone play a gnome two or three times. We nixed them from our last D&D campaign in favor of a small lizard-like race that specialized in psionics (before the books added psionic races). Half-orcs were allowed, but no one ever liked to play them in our games, so I won't miss them. I don't think orcs and humans could cross-breed anyway.

Half-elves we came up with a special explanation for. The elves and the humans had been warring for centuries. The elves were upset at the prolific humans taking over all the land and cutting down forests. The humans just wanted to spread out and use the land that the elves weren't "doing anything" with. It kept going on until the gods intervened, and forcibly put a stop to it. They told the leaders of each nation that their children would marry, and the offspring of that marriage would become the rulers of the entire area. Elves and humans had not been able to have offspring at all prior to this. So the first half-elves arose out of this direct intervention by the gods. Half-elves are fertile with either humans or elves, and the half-elven trait always breeds true. There are no quarter-elves, or 1/8th elves, etc. So now the half-elven are the race of the nobility over a fairly wide area. None of the other races much liked the solution, but the gods have ways of enforcing their decisions.
 

Mallus

Legend
I like both new races. For the first time I find myself using/incorporating some of the RAW fluff in my new collaborative homebrew, which is a post-apocalyptic setting that resulted from the Dragonborn/Tiefling war.

Heck, my PC for that campaign is going to be a poison-spitting, Don Quixote-emulating Dragonborn paladin.
 

GreatLemur

Explorer
4e hasn't really won me over--not to the point of replacing 3.5 and all its third-party derivatives, anyway--but I'd sooner play a dragonborn or tiefling than an elf or dwarf or any of that Tolkieny stuff. That said, I liked Planescape's widely-varied tieflings a lot better. And I'd actually rather just play a lizard guy than a dragon guy. My perception of dragons has been tainted by so many things, over the years...
 

JediSoth

Voice Over Artist & Author
I like the races, but I don't think they should be part of the core D&D experience. I think D&D is more accessible to newbies if the races presented in the basic information are all fantasy tropes. Standard fantasy races seem to be easier to roleplay since they have something in common with people (dwarves = greedy miner, elf = environmentally conscious outdoorsy person, etc.). Someone with demonic blood or a reptilian, I would think, would be more difficult to get in the mindset of for a newbie.

I recall disliking the dragonborn when I first saw them in Races of the Dragon, but since I don't have that book, I can't remember how much they've changed to their current 4E version. I like the 4E version's fluff. I agree with other posters on the tieflings: they were better when their appearance varied. Now they're just cookie-cutter guys (or gals) with horns...and none of them have that cute Sheena Easton accent.

JediSoth
 
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Jhaelen

First Post
I'm indifferent to both races. They are not that bad really. There's been lots of goofier races in the past. However, I don't particularly care about the art:

Dragonborn are to bulky for my taste (and no, I won't write anything about boobs...oops!).

Tiefling horns and tails are ridiculously overdone. If they were really that pronounced they should have some in-game effect (headbutt & tailslap anyone?)

Finally, to really make the races playable (as in role'playing'), they need a lot more depth and cultural background. Otherwise, they're just going to be played like funny looking humans.
Maybe we'll got some decent supplement about races at some point.

I'm a big fan of the Earthdawn non-humans, btw. That setting really shines in its portrayal of the Obsidimen, Windlings, Tskrang and Trolls. They even managed to have an interesting take on staple fantasy races like the Dwarves, Elves, Orcs.
Even the humans are more interesting than elsewhere, since they're not the dominant race.
 

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