Does Dragon Magic Sorcerer = Trap?

[DerekSTheRed]

I created a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer last night and I've run into some issues. The first thing I noticed is that Draconic Resilience only allows you to use your strength for AC and not Reflex defense. So maxing out Strength and Charisma only will make you vulnerable to one of the most attacked defenses.

Secondly, most of the powers that benefit from Dragon Magic are blasts and require you to be in the middle of the fight. Having high AC and high HPs will come into play. However, upping your constitution while having a high strength doesn't benefit your fort defense which seems an inefficient use of points in a point buy. The Dragon Magic Sorcerer may be the first build I've seen in 4E that has MAD issues. One could try to mitigate the Reflex defense by getting Light Shield Proficiency. That means of course that you could only use dagger implements.

My question comes down, what is the best ability array for a Dragon Magic Sorcerer (specifically Dragonborn)? Where do you get the most bang for the buck in a point buy? Or is this class a trap that will always have a weakness?

 

[small pumpkin man]

Reflex isn't attacked significantly more than Fort, and is attacked much less than AC. See here. Giving Dragon Sorcerers the ability to boost all four defences with two stats would give them an overly large bonus over most other classes, if a Fighter or Paladin can get away without a huge ref, then a Dragon Sorcerer can. Considering the fact that they only need to be near melee to use their blasts, not in it, and they do have a decent amount of ranged attacks, I don't see them being in a worse position than Rogues.

 

[Gunpowder]

I am curious why weakness automatically equals a trap build? Obviously, you don't want the monsters to hit your NADs on a two but those points that are not going into dex or int are going into STR where you you are gaining benefits from them. It is an opportunity cost, less in one means more in another. Unlike the old toughness feat where it actively hindered you because you gave up a chance for something useful for something that was worthless. Where people are going to draw the line for dragon sorcerers is going to be based on personally preference more than anything.

In short don't max out STR and CHA if you can about your reflex. Or invest in a shield or a parrying dagger.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The first thing I noticed is that Draconic Resilience only allows you to use your strength for AC and not Reflex defense. So maxing out Strength and Charisma only will make you vulnerable to one of the most attacked defenses.

Most - really, virtually all - builds will have one poor non-AC defense. It's a consequence of getting to boost two stats higher than others. So your Dragonborn Sorcerer will have high FORT and WILL. You join the Cleric and Inspiring Warlord in that - you're in distinguished company.

Secondly, most of the powers that benefit from Dragon Magic are blasts and require you to be in the middle of the fight.

And dragonborn have improved healing surges and an attack bonus when bloodied. Doesn't sound /that/ bad.

Honestly, the Sorcerer is a little too transparent a puff piece for the dragonborn. Theme: perfect fit. Stats: perfect fit. What do more do you want?

The Dragon Magic Sorcerer may be the first build I've seen in 4E that has MAD issues.

Far from the first class that wants both stats in a pair, and doesn't get the non-AC defense it could out of it. Others include: Devoted Clerics, Defending Paladins (both WIS/CHA), Dwarven Fighters (STR/CON), & Wand Wizards.

My question comes down, what is the best ability array for a Dragon Magic Sorcerer (specifically Dragonborn)? Where do you get the most bang for the buck in a point buy? Or is this class a trap that will always have a weakness?

4e makes you work at optimizing stats, there's always a trade-off, so there is no one perfect array. This is true of most class/race combos and builds. Feats further exacerbate things. Dragonborn racial abilities /do/ benefit from CON, CHA is primary for the sorcerer and STR secondary for the build. That's three stats to work on, and not that hard to come up with 16/14/14/13/10/8 before racial bonuses is probably my favorite point-buy array. High score CHA, dump INT & WIS, the rest: whatever works for you. If you're really wanting to shore up your REF save, you can take shield proficiencies (the preq for heavy is 15 STR, easily met), you can still use a staff one-handed as an implement, just not as a weapon.

 

[DerekSTheRed]

Most - really, virtually all - builds will have one poor non-AC defense. It's a consequence of getting to boost two stats higher than others. So your Dragonborn Sorcerer will have high FORT and WILL. You join the Cleric and Inspiring Warlord in that - you're in distinguished company.

<snip>

Far from the first class that wants both stats in a pair, and doesn't get the non-AC defense it could out of it. Others include: Devoted Clerics, Defending Paladins (both WIS/CHA), Dwarven Fighters (STR/CON), & Wand Wizards.

The paladin and fighter builds you mention all make up for their weaknesses with higher hitpoints and/or surges per day while the devoted cleric and wizard stay out of melee combat and therefor take less damage. The problem I'm seeing is that the Dragon Magic Sorcerer is up front and taking damage along with the defenders but with less hit points. I guess that may be the hall mark of the striker role come to think of it.

4e makes you work at optimizing stats, there's always a trade-off, so there is no one perfect array. This is true of most class/race combos and builds. Feats further exacerbate things. Dragonborn racial abilities /do/ benefit from CON, CHA is primary for the sorcerer and STR secondary for the build. That's three stats to work on, and not that hard to come up with 16/14/14/13/10/8 before racial bonuses is probably my favorite point-buy array. High score CHA, dump INT & WIS, the rest: whatever works for you. If you're really wanting to shore up your REF save, you can take shield proficiencies (the preq for heavy is 15 STR, easily met), you can still use a staff one-handed as an implement, just not as a weapon.

I was under the impression that in order to use a staff as an implement you had to wield it (i.e. use two hands) but I could be wrong.

Reflex isn't attacked significantly more than Fort, and is attacked much less than AC. See here. Giving Dragon Sorcerers the ability to boost all four defences with two stats would give them an overly large bonus over most other classes, if a Fighter or Paladin can get away without a huge ref, then a Dragon Sorcerer can. Considering the fact that they only need to be near melee to use their blasts, not in it, and they do have a decent amount of ranged attacks, I don't see them being in a worse position than Rogues.

I was going off of my albeit limited anecdotal experience in LFR where Reflex is used for most area attacks and they are usually bad ones at that. Comparing them to a Rogue is something I should have done I guess. I'm probably still thinking of Sorcerers in the 3E way.

 

[Falling Icicle]

The Dragonblood sorcerer ends up with a good AC, Fort and Will, while the Wild Sorcerer ends up with a good AC, Reflex and Will.

I don't see a problem.

 

[Engilbrand]

Obviously, you don't want the monsters to hit your NADs

Am I the only one who thought that was absolutely hilarious? Honestly, I laugh every time I see that used on these boards.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Suggested starting stats for Dragonborn Sorceror:

STR: 16
CON: 13
DEX: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 10
CHA: 18

Basically by going with the 16/14/14/13/10/8 array you are able to have relatively close bonuses to each set of defences. When you reach paragon tier, you automatically qualify for Arcane Reach, which is great for the close owers that dragon sorcerors like. The AC is going to be a bit lower, but the con allows the sorceror to get into hide armor if they want, and by epic tier (if they put nothing further into con) they can get hide specialization. Alternatively, their strength does allow for shield profiency, and the 14 defence allows shield specialization at paragon tier as well. The con gives at least a small bonus to the dragonborn's racials, and it gets better at paragon.

 

[Eldorian]

Or is this class a trap that will always have a weakness?

If you think a low reflex is insurmountable, you need to play a different game. Otherwise, get used to having at least one low defense score. Sorcerer is better than most since at least it's primary and secondary stats are different defenses.

Sorry.

 

[deleteme123456]

I'm mostly worried about the low AC. Even taking leather at level 1, you're looking at 15 AC with most arrays that are being suggested. I went through and gave every class one defensive feat at level 1 if they were likely to meet the prereqs and have a use for it (fighters for example probably won't take plate at level 1 even though many will qualify for it).

Assume: 18 in a primary stat (e.g. Rogue, Wizard, S'Mage); 16 in a secondary stat (e.g. Dragon Sorc, Warlock)

LEADERS
Cleric: 17 (chain) + Weapon prof: Parrying Dagger (might not have str 13)
Warlord: 18 (scale, light shield). 17 if playing with reach weapons.
Artificer: 17 (leather, parrying dagger)
Shaman: 16 (int secondary + hide or con secondary + chain)
Bard: 17/18 (int build will stay at 17 = 3 hide + 3 int + 1 shield, con build might pick up scale for the extra; neither build likely to have str 15 for heavy shield)

STRIKERS:
Barbarian: 16 (Assume you can use your secondary stat? Not likely to use defensive feat if so. Hide + Con = 16).
Ranger: 17 (Archer, doesn't need feat) / 16 (Melee, Chain)
Rogue: 17 (Parrying Dagger or Hide)
Warlock: 16 (Parrying Pact Dagger would make my short list.) + concealment
Sorc: 15 (Leather, secondary stat)
Avenger: 18 (Leather, secondary stat, class feature)

DEFENDERS
Fighter: 19 since most fighters won't take plate at level 1.
Pally: 20. What's a defensive feat?
Swordmage: 20. Hide. Relatively optional.
Warden: 18. No feat. (Hide + 2ary stat + heavy shield) Higher HP than other defenders.

CONTROLLER:
Wizard: 16/17 (Leather, Staff)
Invoker: 17 (hide + int or chain, +1 feat for shield or dagger or defensive staves)
Druid: 17 (hide + dex or con, +1 feat for shield or dagger or defensive staves)