Does "EmDrive" quantum effect produce thrust, in violation of Newton's Third Law?

Umbran

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That's vastly different than claiming to produce quantitative scientific research.

To be fair - Eagleworks' statement on this wasn't presented as an academic paper claiming to be scientific research. The current interest is being generated by what is basically a progress report they gave to NASA.

a) We have no data from experiments that can be expected to provide results sensitive enough to tell. If EmDrive worked, it would violate not just an empirical law of physics but a mathematical theorem, so it would be indeed amazing.

Unless, of course, it operation was based on something we don't yet understand - interacting with a virtual plasma, for example, that hauls away the momentum in a way we don't quite grok yet.

As we noted - Tesla did his work without believing in or understanding electrons - you don't need full understanding to make something that functions.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

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Similarly, Brahmins in India immunized people from smallpox by applying scabs from the surviving afflicted to minor scratches on the as-yet uninflected, many hundreds of years before anyone understood or Eden suspected the existence of viruses.

Causation and effectiveness can often be figured out long before true understanding is reached.
 


Jhaelen

First Post
Tesla was a brilliant man, and a testament to what you can do when you don't actually understand what you're dealing with - Tesla was a forerunner in electrical development, but didn't believe in the existence of electrons!
I know. He was a follower of the old theories about 'ether' stuff and didn't believe in the existence of subatomic particles.
Then again, Einstein believed quantum mechanics were hocus pocus, right?

Tesla did have his own theories (which he naturally never put into writing!), and apparently they were still sufficienty close to reality to allow him to create devices that worked just fine - even if they didn't work for the reasons he thought.
 

Umbran

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Then again, Einstein believed quantum mechanics were hocus pocus, right?

That's not a good representation of Einstein's position. He saw and accepted that the math of quantum mechanics predicted results. However, he felt the formulation was incomplete - if you interpret the math as reality, it suggested to Einstein that the real, hard, physical reality of his experience... wasn't really there. Einstein had problems accepting any such interpretation. So, he expected that Bohr and the rest were on to something, but that they were missing some understanding that would return that hard reality back to the picture.

Basically, all the spooky stuff (particle entanglement, Schrodinger's cat, and such) Einstein figured were artifacts of scientists missing something.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
To be fair - Eagleworks' statement on this wasn't presented as an academic paper claiming to be scientific research. The current interest is being generated by what is basically a progress report they gave to NASA.
Eagleworks presented their results at a conference (no idea if there's any refereeing process at that conference) with the proceedings published here (full paper behind paywall). That's a claim that they did serious scientific research.

Unless, of course, it operation was based on something we don't yet understand - interacting with a virtual plasma, for example, that hauls away the momentum in a way we don't quite grok yet.

While possible, this is all ridiculously unlikely. First of all, Lorentz invariance --- special relativity --- have been tested extremely well here at earth. That means the vacuum respects relativity and doesn't carry momentum. Furthermore, unless you want to say that one part of the lab is somehow fundamentally different than another part of the lab, it's a mathematical theorem that momentum is conserved. So, to get thrust, that engine would have to be exhausting something, even if we don't know what it is. So, we have three options: (1) The entire framework in which physics has been done for centuries has to be thrown out, and we understand nothing about how the world works, and all of our inventions are just lucky guesses, or (2) The engine is somehow generating a new type of fundamental particle, which carries off non-zero momentum, providing thrust (there are lots of reasons this is hard), or (3) The work that the original inventor and subsequent researchers have done is as poor as it looks on inspection and doesn't actually show anything besides systematic errors. Given that I just read enough of the inventor's "theory paper" to see an exhibition of complete misunderstanding of basic equations of electrodynamics, I know how I weigh the odds.

As we noted - Tesla did his work without believing in or understanding electrons - you don't need full understanding to make something that functions.

I want to make a clarification about Tesla, since he's come up a lot in this thread. His professional life was well after the basic principles of electrodynamics were worked out by physicists including Ampere, Faraday, and especially Maxwell (among many others of course). They didn't know about electrons, either, since they died before the discovery that matter is made of particles. But that doesn't matter. The classical theory of electrodynamics only needs the concept of charge to work perfectly well; Tesla knew this physics and had no problem believing in the concept of charge and current. So, despite his eccentricities and conflicts with the scientific knowledge of his day (basically refusing to accept experimental data because he didn't like it), he did understand extremely well the parts of physics relevant to electrical engineering. He wasn't just guessing and getting lucky.


Similarly, Brahmins in India immunized people from smallpox by applying scabs from the surviving afflicted to minor scratches on the as-yet uninflected, many hundreds of years before anyone understood or Eden suspected the existence of viruses.

Causation and effectiveness can often be figured out long before true understanding is reached.

Absolutely true, and there are different levels of true understanding. But it is a very different case. No one in India had centuries of evidence suggesting that it's impossible to immunize oneself from smallpox in that manner.

I feel like I've been saying the same thing a lot, so I'm now going to refer you to someone else who puts it pretty nicely. I urge you all to read the article that Dannyalcatraz posted near the top of the thread from the Discover magazine blog, especially the last section. It's not about the money or the effort. That's such a small cost that it's fine to chase off-the-wall ideas. But there are other costs. Here's the best quote: "I am personally a huge space enthusiast; I would love to see a new type of propulsion that would make it easier to explore the universe. But having your heart in the right place is no excuse to walk away from normal critical thinking. It is not materially different than the approach of people who reject science when they don’t like what it says about climate change, vaccines, or genetically modified organisms."

Now the exhaustless engine has exhausted me!
 

Umbran

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Eagleworks presented their results at a conference (no idea if there's any refereeing process at that conference) with the proceedings published here (full paper behind paywall). That's a claim that they did serious scientific research.

I don't think so. Serious science has referees, and is peer-reviewed, right? You yourself say you don't know if there's a refereeing process for that conference and proceedings. It isn't peer-reviewed. So, how does attending and presenting that non-refereed and non-reviewed conference qualify as such a claim?

They were allowed to make that presentation, by the rules and mores of the AIAA. But you come down on them for failing to meet a standard for a presentation that did not ask them to meet such standards! That's kind of like coming down on someone in the American League for using a pinch hitter - the rules allow it, so what is your gripe?

There must be venues where professionals can discuss things that are't yet ready for prime time - failing to have them would put a damper on communication in the scientific community. If you have a gripe, it is with the science reporters who don't know (or don't care) about the difference between something in a peer-reviewed journal, and something that isn't. Take it up with them.

While possible, this is all ridiculously unlikely.

I agree. I personally think it is likely to be a junk result - probably minor heating of the air within the cavity leading to a small force, or an instrumentation issue that registered force when there was none.

I also understand Clarke's First Law, noted above, and see no need for me to stick my foot in my mouth and chew vigorously :)


I want to make a clarification about Tesla, since he's come up a lot in this thread. His professional life was well after the basic principles of electrodynamics were worked out by physicists including Ampere, Faraday, and especially Maxwell (among many others of course).

All true. But Tesla went well beyond the basics of electrodynamics as his time understood them - if he hadn't, he'd have not been remarkable. Virtually nothing Tesla did is something anyone of his time looked at and went, "Well, of course, we already know how that works!"

You know how the Tesla-Edison conflict first began? In 1885 Tesla worked for Edison. By (admittedly, sometimes questioned) reports, Tesla went to Edison, and said he could massively improve the efficiency of Edison's DC motors and generators with a new design. Edison, not really believing Tesla's claim, said there was $50K in it for Tesla if he could accomplish what he said. Tesla promptly went and did it. Edison, however, didn't fork over the cash - he claimed he'd been joking, and offered Tesla a 50% raise, instead. Tesla refused, and resigned, and the acrimony was born.
 


Umbran

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Edison did NOT cover himself with glory in his disputes with Tesla.

Not that Edison was a paragon of modern ethics, but I could totally see how this was really just a misunderstanding. Tesla was not a native English speaker, so subtleties of tone may have been lost on him. Edison might well have honestly not meant the offer (really - it would be something like a million dollars in today's terms!), and Tesla might honestly have thought he was reneging on a deal.
 

Janx

Hero
Not that Edison was a paragon of modern ethics, but I could totally see how this was really just a misunderstanding. Tesla was not a native English speaker, so subtleties of tone may have been lost on him. Edison might well have honestly not meant the offer (really - it would be something like a million dollars in today's terms!), and Tesla might honestly have thought he was reneging on a deal.

Edison's shenanigans in the War of the Currents further clinched it. If he'd had his head on straight, he'd have seen he was over-committed to DC and that AC was superior in all ways for the business of supplying power to the country.

That and doing business with JP Morgan, who's dirty business took out George Westinghouse's AC operations so he could take it all over...

Edison and JP Morgan were also behind manipulating the patent office to screw Tesla out of his radio patents so Marconi's would take precedence.
 

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