Does forced movement out of a threatened area trigger an AoO?

[magnusmalkus]

I've been playing D&D 3.5 for years and I am so surprised this has never come up for me before.

I've got a firm grip on AoO rules, but this situation arose and it stumped me. I understand AoO's are provoked when a combatant leaves a threatened square... does the reason why or method how they leave the square matter?

Basically: What if a combatant were pushed, blown, pulled, falling, or otherwise FORCED to move out of a threatened square?

I used a search engine and found 4e rules that say forced movement does not trigger an AoO but has there ever been any mention of it in a 3.5e context?

Thanks in advance folks!

 

[VariSami]

At least the enchantment "Brutal Surge" has a mention of the movement its bull rush causes provoking attacks of opportunity from others than you. Since that is the only reference I happen to remember for now, I would say that it causes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise specified.

 

[Belzbet]

I would say yes the creature does provoke AoO... The general rule covers this situation (no need for specific rules)... Anyway (non-mechanic wise) the AoO rules are supposed to cover situations where the character is exposed... a character is more exposed being pushed back or falling down (or otherwise being forced out of a square) than it would be moving back or flying down (or voluntarily leaving a square)...
Also, if a character is being pushed by another character both creatures incur AoO's (not from each other though)

 

[delericho]

The SRD notes under bull rush that the defender provokes AoOs if he is moved (and the attacker does also if he chooses to move with him). Though neither of those two provokes AoOs from the other.

 

[Sunseeker]

I tend to say no in all situations unless there is a specific reason saying they should. Movement is the choice to do something other than defend yourself, and that process of lowering your defenses provokes AoO. Your defenses do not go down when you are forced to move.

 

[Ahnehnois]

As to Bull Rush the SRD is clear. In general, I'd say yes. The rules say you provoke when moving, and unless there's a specific exception, the general rule stands.

I tend to say no in all situations unless there is a specific reason saying they should. Movement is the choice to do something other than defend yourself, and that process of lowering your defenses provokes AoO. Your defenses do not go down when you are forced to move.

I think if you're being forced to move, your defenses are compromised regardless of whether you chose that or not.

 

[magnusmalkus]

The more I hear the more I'm understanding. It looks like, for this gray area, that one must adjudicate based on the circumstances.

The bull-rush maneuver+AoO management has been gone over with a fine toothed comb throughout the years. There's lots of information on the topic all over the place. I don't think any precedent set in the Bull-Rush discussion applies to my specific scenario... or does it... hmmm. I'll get back to that.

The specific scenario that occurred in our our game was as such:

The party was up against a Scorpion Swarm (Sandstorm, pg 185).

Everyone involved in this scenario was lined up in a single 5' wide path, 25' long with lots of empty space beyond them. Starting at the left was a Druidess, in the next square was another PC (a Binder). Occupying the same square as the Binder was 5' worth of the 20' long/5'wide scorpion swarm:

Druidess - Binder/Scorpion Swarm - Scorpion Swarm - Scorpion Swarm - Scorpion Swarm

The Druidess in the group used Gust of Wind to push the Swarm back targeting the square in front of her, where the Binder stood and the swarm began. Being tiny creatures, the gust wound up pushing the Swarm back 30', leaving the medium sized humanoid in place, and consequently theoretically qualifying an AoO due to the technical occurrence that a portion (two portions to be precise) of the swarm moved out of a square the Binder threatened.

At the time to keep the game moving, I adjudicated that the Binder did get an AoO (he only qualified for one AoO a turn) but that I'd do some research before next session. It just didn't seem right to me.

In light of these discussions, I'd say I ruled correctly in allowing it. I think I've been swayed to the perspective that because the scorpion swarm was being tossed about in 50 MPH winds, that they were momentarily 'distracted' enough (ie, 'exposed' or else involuntarily forced to 'lower their defenses') to qualify to suffer the AoO. After all, the spell also specifies that they end their movement prone. But that was the rub... INVOLUNTARILY forced.

I like shidaku's statement that defenses do not go down if you are forced to move (the Withdrawal combat action gives precedent that it is possible to move and defend), and I want to apply that across the board, but what we are dissecting here is the difference between voluntarily moving and involuntary moving. It looks like that in many cases, involuntary movement is often 'distracting' enough to qualify that someones defenses are lowered - and that must be the element that needs adjudicating in these gray areas.

I suppose this also means falling victims can also be AoO'd if a cliff-side combatant is somehow secured and can threaten a square the falling victim leaves, and be able to make an attack.

Does this mean someone who is involuntarily forced to move is ALSO denied their Dex bonus to AC for the AoO? Well, if the action specifically says they land prone (as in the Gust of Wind spell), then I guess - yes. Speaking of which, can you apply sneak attack on an AoO? /shrug

As for Bull-Rush... maybe it does set precedent to allow the AoO. If we consider that theoretically it's the Druidess and the Scorpion Swarm that are enacting a Bull-Rush like maneuver with a Gust Of Wind spell, as in Bull-Rush, the victim IS moved and thus does provoke an AoO from combatants 'outside' of that maneuver. And, the Binder, in this case, is exactly that outside party! That works for me.

 

[Sunseeker]

I think if you're being forced to move, your defenses are compromised regardless of whether you chose that or not.

I think of it more along the lines of football, when two players are pushing against each other. Neither one of their defenses are compromised, simply the foce and momentum of one player is causing the other to move backwards.

But again I think spells should specify. Magical compulsion probably makes you lower your defenses, it's a compulsion after all.

 

[delericho]

The text of the AoO rules from the SRD says the following:

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity

Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.

Moving

Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act

Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.

As far as I can see from that, the key phrase is "two kinds of actions". When a spell or effect causes forced movement, the character that is moving takes no action to do so. Thus, no AoO is provoked. (And bull rush, which states otherwise, would be one of the exceptions that the text mentions.)

 

[delericho]

The Druidess in the group used Gust of Wind to push the Swarm back targeting the square in front of her, where the Binder stood and the swarm began. Being tiny creatures, the gust wound up pushing the Swarm back 30', leaving the medium sized humanoid in place, and consequently theoretically qualifying an AoO due to the technical occurrence that a portion (two portions to be precise) of the swarm moved out of a square the Binder threatened.

After having checked the SRD, I think the answer is "no AoO". See my previous post. Because the swarm isn't taking any action, it does nothing to provoke.

I suppose this also means falling victims can also be AoO'd if a cliff-side combatant is somehow secured and can threaten a square the falling victim leaves, and be able to make an attack.

Theoretically, yes. But the fall would have to be an action the character took - Luke Skywalker rather than Hans Gruber.

Does this mean someone who is involuntarily forced to move is ALSO denied their Dex bonus to AC for the AoO? Well, if the action specifically says they land prone (as in the Gust of Wind spell), then I guess - yes.

Not in general. Losing the Dex bonus is a pretty big deal, so should only happen when you really mean it. Also, note that an AoO always happens before the action that triggered it, so the question is not whether they end prone but whether they start off prone. (This distinction is especially important if the attacker has Improved Trip. Standing up provokes an AoO, but this cannot be used to trip the character again because at the time of the AoO he is already prone.)

Speaking of which, can you apply sneak attack on an AoO?

Yes, provided you are flanking or the opponent is denied his Dex bonus to AC.