Does Medium Armor Need a Buff?

[Fishing_Minigame]

Hmm. Reading over this thread, I think I see two main points I agree with:

1) In terms of AC progression, medium armor sounds like it should be slightly better than light armor, and slightly worse than heavy armor. Instead, its equivalent to light armor assuming breastplate + medium armor master or half-plate + 14 Dex.

2) Medium armor encourages MAD to get maximum AC.

If I'm playing say, a strength-based two weapon Ranger who wants decent perception as well as 16/17 AC, I need at least 14 dex, and decent strength, wisdom and con. Whereas rogues/dex valor bards/etc can focus on hitting 20 dex in their main combat stat and receive maximum AC on top of the bonuses to dex saves and initiative. Heavy armor users can in theory ignore dex entirely. Now, we've established that dex is a terrible dump stat, because even without save or die effects (which may or may not pop up in your game) there's more than enough AoE spells with dex saves for it to be considered one of the important save stats.

I can think of 2 possible solutions which may or may not work in practice. They are:

1) Nerf light armor slightly.

Maybe cap the bonus to AC at +4? This ties studded leather with 18 dex vs. breastplate at 16 AC, and gives medium armor master or half-plate a slight edge.

2) Change Medium Armor Master to the following:

• While wearing medium armor, you can use your strength modifier in place of dexterity for the purposes of determining your AC.
• When you wear medium armor, you can add 3, rather than 2, to your AC if you have a Dexterity or Strength of 16 or higher.

Do either of these suggestions sound workable? Maybe the feat could use con instead of strength, but that might be stepping on the barbarian's toes too much.

 

[discosoc]

Physics fail. Weight -distribution- is not the issue with swimming in armor. Buoyancy (cf Archimedes' principle) is.

Weight distribution affects the mobility for arms and legs, which *is* important since those are what will determine if you can actually move around the water much (as in swim). You won't do any long-distance swimming by any means, but the sheer weight wasn't so much as to prevent someone who runs and fights and trains in the stuff from being able to swim 10 or 20 feet to get somewhere.

Remember, people can hold their breath, which means swimming is quite possible as long as you can move around a little.

 

[MostlyDm]

Hmm. Reading over this thread, I think I see two main points I agree with:

1) In terms of AC progression, medium armor sounds like it should be slightly better than light armor, and slightly worse than heavy armor. Instead, its equivalent to light armor assuming breastplate + medium armor master or half-plate + 14 Dex.

Medium armor is slightly better than light armor... for everyone but the top fraction of a percent of people that are so acrobatic and quick that they're better off in light armor. This is sort of analogous to the way that in 3.5 you could theoretically get someone with such a high Dexterity that even padded armor was too restrictive, and they were better off totally unarmored. Just, less granular than that, because 5e. Thankfully.

But if you look at how the armors fit into the framework of the world... that is, not with an eye to perfect balance for fully optimized PCs, where each armor is 100% equivalent... the picture emerges more clearly.

Of the NPCs in the Monster Manual exactly one has a 20 in a stat; the highest CR NPC Archmage has 20 Intelligence. The Assassin has 16 Dex. The Elite Drow Warrior has 18 Dex.

For most people in the world, medium armor gives better AC than light armor. For a tiny percentage of light armor users, the two are roughly equivalent. If you're in the top percentile of agile people, care about stealth and don't play with feats, light armor might even be better.

This really doesn't seem like a bug. If light armor is a motorcycle, and heavy armor is a tank, then medium armor is a regular car. It may not be as good as either of the other options when it comes to specialized purposes, but it's hands down the most accessible, reliable, and common tool for the job.

 

[Zalabim]

No one's mentioned the other benefit to medium armor yet. Shield proficiency comes bundled with medium armor proficiency (except for Dwarves).

On the scales of character resources to AC, light armor costs the least gold and the most character stat points to reach 17 AC, needing proficiency and 20 Dexterity. Medium armor has a gold cost in the middle and stat cost in between, needing two proficiencies and 14 Dexterity for 17 AC, or 16 Dexterity and a full feat to reach 18 AC. Heavy armor costs the most gold and the least stats, needing three proficiencies and optionally 15 Str for 18 AC. Each armor proficiency would cost 1 stat if it had to be bought with feats, which gives light armor a cost of 21 (with -1 AC +normal stealth), medium armor a cost of 16 (-1 or -2 AC +/- stealth) or 20, and heavy armor costing 18 (-stealth). When you already have all the proficiency, it works out to 20, 14/18, and 15. Medium and Heavy armor are distinguished somewhat by allowing a PC to start with a stat necessary to reach the highest AC with them, with medium armor taking one ASI to reach the 18 AC point(for a race with a dex bonus), and light armor needing two. For a character that doesn't focus on either Str or Dex, taking heavy armor proficiency or medium armor mastery is a faster way to raise AC than raising Dexterity later in levels.

The practical results are that dexterous warriors wear light armor, strong warriors wear heavy armor, and non-warriors or those whose class features otherwise prevent using heavy armor wear medium armor.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Weight distribution affects the mobility for arms and legs, which *is* important since those are what will determine if you can actually move around the water much (as in swim). You won't do any long-distance swimming by any means, but the sheer weight wasn't so much as to prevent someone who runs and fights and trains in the stuff from being able to swim 10 or 20 feet to get somewhere.

Remember, people can hold their breath, which means swimming is quite possible as long as you can move around a little.

This is almost entirely fiction. Being able to flounce temporarily in plate armor does not equate to swimming, for which reason there is precisely zero historical record of such a thing. It takes about 2-3 times as much energy to keep plate armor afloat as mail. Notwithstanding that while urban myth and certain RPGs have exaggerated the differences in maneuverability between armor types, plate armor STILL limits range of motion to a notably greater extent than mail.

 

[cmad1977]

No. It does not need a buff.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Sadrik]

Here are my changes to the armors. Light, Medium are the main line armors and heavy you have to get it later through a feat if you want it. In a way this works where medium is the heavy armor. In this heavier armors are always better if you can get the STR to wear it. I also added the STR requirements down to light armor. One other thing is the disadvantage to stealth is increased to disadvantage with acrobatics and possibly other DEX based skills. You will also see that shields are weapons and not armor. buckler is a simple weapon and shield is a martial weapon. I don't know how germane this is to the current conversation but I thought I would add my thoughts on the subject.

Light Armor (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue): Studded Leather is STR 9.
Medium Armor (Fighter): no DEX cap but all AC's are lowered by 1. Hide armor is STR 9, Chain Shirt and Scale Mail are STR 11, Breast Plate and Half-Plate are STR 13.
Heavy Armor: no DEX cap but all base AC's are lowered by 2.

Shields are weapons and proficiency is granted through weapon proficiency
Buckler gives +1 AC and is a simple weapon.
Shield gives +2 AC and is a martial weapon.

 

[ExploderWizard]

While save or die things might be satisfactory to a person trying to present the game as a simulation, it does not function at all in a narrative sense and is fundamentally bad for game play.

It knocks both a player and a protagonist out of a story due to an event that was almost certainly not meant to actually be an important or meaningful moment. Just a random trap coupled with a single poor roll.

There is no protagonist. There is no story. There is NO BATHROOM!!! Such an event is only bad for a pre-written story or for game play that is largely for show rather than a primary driver of actual events. Minor or incidental events can become major or important due to chance or bad luck.

Weight distribution affects the mobility for arms and legs, which *is* important since those are what will determine if you can actually move around the water much (as in swim). You won't do any long-distance swimming by any means, but the sheer weight wasn't so much as to prevent someone who runs and fights and trains in the stuff from being able to swim 10 or 20 feet to get somewhere.

Remember, people can hold their breath, which means swimming is quite possible as long as you can move around a little.

If you are holding your breath, even without wearing armor, then you won't be swimming very long. In shallow water, you are better off just sinking to the bottom and walking while holding your breath (much less energy expended). In deep water you are just dead. You can't remove armor while flailing desperately to stay afloat and in 5 minutes you will have sunk deep enough to kill you. AC or no AC no character of mine would wear anything much heavier than leather (if that) during water travel.

 

[Kalshane]

I think medium armor is fine as-is. Characters that actually specialize in medium armor are rare, but that's fine. It does the job its intended for.

And I'd be hesitant to make the Medium Armor Master feat better, as it's currently the way to get the best AC outside of magic (or a shield-using barbarian with a 20 Dex and Con, which is a pretty rare beast.). Half-plate+16 Dex+Medium Armor Master+Shield gets you AC 21. (22 if you're a fighter, ranger or paladin and take defensive style) which is one better than full plate and shield and still lets you stealth without penalty.