FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Wouldn't Disengage be more effective in almost all cases (barring Sentinel)? Taking zero damage from opportunity attacks is better than half damage.
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D&D 5E Does the "Friends" cantrip need a fix?
- Thread starter ShadowSeeker
- Start date
Wouldn't Disengage be more effective in almost all cases (barring Sentinel)? Taking zero damage from opportunity attacks is better than half damage.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
That's a pretty strong claim to knowledge about various tables. If I made that claim I'm not sure how I would defend it, so I'd rather say "if" than "since".
Reasons to use Blade Ward over Dodge:
1.) You're a squishy AC 11 wizard.
2.) You're a semi-squishy AC 13 + Shield spell wizard who is being targeted by, say, a Nycaloth (+9).
3.) You're a a semi-squishy AC 13 + Shield wizard who is being grappled by a giant ant/crocodile/whatever and therefore cannot benefit from the Dodge maneuver by RAW.
4.) You're a warlock with Armor of Agathys up/wizard with Fire Shield up and you would rather take half damage while inflicting full damage all the time than take full damage half the time and inflict full damage half the time.
5.) You're an Eldritch Knight with War Magic.
6.) (Arguable) You're facing a threat that cannot be dodged, e.g. you're falling to your doom and hope that Blade Ward will save your life if the ground counts as a bludgeoning weapon.
7.) You use an alternate initiative system like Speed Factor Initiative which makes Blade Ward sometimes last long enough for you to get an attack off while it is still up.
8.) You'd rather face two DC 10 concentration checks than one DC 20 Concentration check.
9.) You're trying to avoid death from massive damage.
That's all I've got. None of these situations have yet occurred in any of my games[1]; but I still find them compelling enough that I often try to learn Blade Ward if I have some extra cantrips free. It's insurance in case I ever get into any of these situations.
[1] Well actually, #7 does hold when I DM... but I don't get to make and use PCs in my own games, so Blade Ward isn't really an option still.
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Sword of Spirit
Legend
Good point.
Disengage only applies to single opponent or at best the opponents you are currently engaged with. Blade ward will also help you with the missile attacks, (for some reason they target magic users) as well as any other opponents you must rush past to reach the safety of your meat wall.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
famousringo
First Post
The only thing I can think to add:
10.) You're a sorcerer and you are dodging, but you Quicken a Blade Ward to pile on the defense. Somehow you have the sorcery points for this, but no slots/spells known for a real defense spell.
I guess a multiclass monk could do this, too.
I like number 4. I can see a warlock doing more damage by doubling his Agathys retaliations than he might by attacking.
MidrealmDM
Explorer
Fix for Friends
The simplest solution (IMHO) is to allow the target a saving throw when the spell expires (or when concentration ends)
with failure extending the duration of the effect for a long enough time to be slightly more useful.
The spell would work as normal, and then (depending on the saving throw result) it could take the target up to 10 minutes to realize they had been manipulated instead of immediately.
FRIENDS
Enchantment cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S, M (a small amount of makeup applied
to the face as this spell is cast)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma
checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t
hostile toward you. When the spell ends, the creature
must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw. If the saving
throw is successful, the creature realizes that you used magic
to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you.
Otherwise the creature remains ignorant of your magical
influence for 10 minutes, after which time it becomes hostile.
A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another
creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM’s
discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction
with it.
The simplest solution (IMHO) is to allow the target a saving throw when the spell expires (or when concentration ends)
with failure extending the duration of the effect for a long enough time to be slightly more useful.
The spell would work as normal, and then (depending on the saving throw result) it could take the target up to 10 minutes to realize they had been manipulated instead of immediately.
FRIENDS
Enchantment cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S, M (a small amount of makeup applied
to the face as this spell is cast)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma
checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t
hostile toward you. When the spell ends, the creature
must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw. If the saving
throw is successful, the creature realizes that you used magic
to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you.
Otherwise the creature remains ignorant of your magical
influence for 10 minutes, after which time it becomes hostile.
A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another
creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM’s
discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction
with it.
MidrealmDM
Explorer
Dodge lasts until the start of your next turn, Blade Ward lasts until the end.
A small distinction, but there are probably times when it might be of advantage.
Jabborwacky
First Post
So, I gave others the benefit of a doubt and have attempted to use this in a few games. Unfortunately, anyone saying this cantrip is powerful or even at all useful is not thinking straight. A cantrip is supposed to make some aspect of the game easier, but this one does the complete opposite.
1. You can't use it to influence attitude in a positive manner. The shortest speech a person can give to influence a person's standing is known as an "elevator pitch," and those are thirty seconds. However, this is only the beginning of a longer conversation. You won't get the chance to actually make a request within the one minute allowed before he turns totally hostile.
2. If you can already achieve a level of rapport with a creature that makes asking requests of it plausible, you have no need for the spell. Actually, the spell constitutes a form of self-sabotage in such cases because you could be making requests that take many magnitudes more time to complete. The subject also has no reason to turn hostile. Think of all that hard work you'd have to put in to make an orcish guard treat you as a friend only to blow it all on a one minute request for his ham sandwich.
3. Charm spells do not implant false memories of friendship, and have the complete opposite effect of making others ignore your presence: You may be a well received stranger, but you are still a stranger. So merely asking for the keys to the jail isn't going to work without some linguistic sugar, which will turn the request into an elevator pitch. Not only that, but for this spell to be effective, you need to get what you want in under thirty seconds: the remaining thirty is you running at top speed away from the people who will in short time want to do the worst things imaginable to you.
4. If you are confident enough to use this spell without running, you could have achieved the same results with a minor distraction, some sleight of hand, or just outright beating the targets into unconsciousness. Two of those hold the genuine possibility of never turning your targets hostile despite taking advantage of them, making a mundane skill check vastly superior to a cantrip. The third will turn them hostile, but you'll be long gone before they'll be lucid enough to rally their forces, making any damage you take in the process well worth it. Virtually all of these options are vastly superior to the friendship cantrip.
To balance the cantrip against these other options, I'd suggest the spell simply give the player advantage on one charisma check with a single creature that must be initiated within the spells duration. Regardless of the success or failure of the charisma check, the same creature cannot be the target of the friendship cantrip for 24 hours. If the target of the friends cantrip catches you in the act of casting it on him/her with a successful perception check against the spell's DC your standing with the creature after the spell wears off is moved one step lower than it was before the casting of the cantrip.
The change lets players cast it as much as they want (albeit on different targets) and forces the player to think tactically about its use.
1. You can't use it to influence attitude in a positive manner. The shortest speech a person can give to influence a person's standing is known as an "elevator pitch," and those are thirty seconds. However, this is only the beginning of a longer conversation. You won't get the chance to actually make a request within the one minute allowed before he turns totally hostile.
2. If you can already achieve a level of rapport with a creature that makes asking requests of it plausible, you have no need for the spell. Actually, the spell constitutes a form of self-sabotage in such cases because you could be making requests that take many magnitudes more time to complete. The subject also has no reason to turn hostile. Think of all that hard work you'd have to put in to make an orcish guard treat you as a friend only to blow it all on a one minute request for his ham sandwich.
3. Charm spells do not implant false memories of friendship, and have the complete opposite effect of making others ignore your presence: You may be a well received stranger, but you are still a stranger. So merely asking for the keys to the jail isn't going to work without some linguistic sugar, which will turn the request into an elevator pitch. Not only that, but for this spell to be effective, you need to get what you want in under thirty seconds: the remaining thirty is you running at top speed away from the people who will in short time want to do the worst things imaginable to you.
4. If you are confident enough to use this spell without running, you could have achieved the same results with a minor distraction, some sleight of hand, or just outright beating the targets into unconsciousness. Two of those hold the genuine possibility of never turning your targets hostile despite taking advantage of them, making a mundane skill check vastly superior to a cantrip. The third will turn them hostile, but you'll be long gone before they'll be lucid enough to rally their forces, making any damage you take in the process well worth it. Virtually all of these options are vastly superior to the friendship cantrip.
To balance the cantrip against these other options, I'd suggest the spell simply give the player advantage on one charisma check with a single creature that must be initiated within the spells duration. Regardless of the success or failure of the charisma check, the same creature cannot be the target of the friendship cantrip for 24 hours. If the target of the friends cantrip catches you in the act of casting it on him/her with a successful perception check against the spell's DC your standing with the creature after the spell wears off is moved one step lower than it was before the casting of the cantrip.
The change lets players cast it as much as they want (albeit on different targets) and forces the player to think tactically about its use.
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